I just looked at a rival website and saw that there are some new arrivals in To Kwa Wan, fairly young, and allegedly being able to speak Japanese, English, and Cantonese. I was wondering if someone here had information on the actual nationality of these girls, and whether they were forcefully trafficked or not, as I do not like to spend my money where there is sex slavery.

Any honest insight is appreciated

this is an honest reply …

if you do not want to be involved in human trafficking then you should not be punting, the sex industry anywhere in this world involves this one way or another to varying degrees

even the walk up girls … some who seem to be working for themselves were pare of this when they started out and even though the now seem independent they are still involved to a certain degree

we may not condone this but this is reality …

I think that there are girls who are trafficked willingfully and not willingfully, as well as girls who are not trafficked at all but choose to work for money (not saying they enjoy it). Of course, I think it is not possible to safe guard 100% against the risk that a girl was trafficked involuntarily, but this doesn't mean that someone should not do their due diligence before punting. This is why (in my opinion) people should make at least a very small effort to ensure that scumbags that trick and deceive girls don't get paid for their efforts. I am not saying that anything that is slightly illegal should not be paid for, I am saying that slight efforts to curtail scumbags like this should not be dismissed.

With all due respect, I partly disagree with the statement that "if you do not want to be involved in human trafficking then you should not be punting, the sex industry anywhere in this world involves this one way or another to varying degrees ".  On one hand, it is possible that even the non-trafficked girls pay their leases to Triads who are involved in trafficking girls, and in this regard, you are correct that it is impossible to 100% not be involved in it. However, there are varying degrees of support and involvement, and I (personally) prefer to minimize the amount of money the scumbag gets in every punting transaction that I make. And it is entirely possible, although perhaps not in Hong Kong, to punt and not be involved with trafficking. There are many legitimate legal brothels in other parts of the world (maybe some in Hong Kong) that do not have any business trafficking.

How would one go about finding out what you are asking ? - especially when you try to differentiate what you believe to be acceptable and unacceptable "trafficking"


The main criteria for most women, who by your description of not being "trafficked", is money, so how do most of them get into the trade ? ... they borrow money and when they're not able to pay the principle and the interest they are given a way of paying back ... by using their body ... what happens when they find they can't do "it" after they start being a WG ?

your point about brothels ... in this part of the world, the girls who works in these brothels are the ones who are most likely to be "trafficked" by your terms - more not willfully then willfully
but all over the world any girl working in a brothel they give part of their takings to the keepers ... what you're trying to say is if they give more its not acceptable for you but if they give less its acceptable ?

all I'm trying to say is one should not be under any illusions when they try to apply their personnel values on a situation

if you're in HK maybe you will rest easier if you targeted DHs instead ...

(My apologies if I didn't get the formatting right for the quote). The thing I (personally) care about is consent. When the girls got the loan, or agreed to go to HK, did they know they would be prostituting themselves, or were they mislead into thinking they would be working as a hair stylist? Legal or illegal, there are girls that probably know what will happen when they get the loan, and other naive ones that don't. Basically, I simply want to fuck girls who knew/consented to them becoming prostitutes, or were not threatened into it through debt bondage. I would say the main criteria to differentiate these "slave" from "nonslave" WGs is consent and knowledge of what would actually happen when they signed a contract.


This is a very interesting insight, especially from what I am guessing is probably someone who is very experienced. Assuming that the majority of working girls in HK are mainland Chinese (I may be incorrect here, please correct me if so), then would you say that most of these girls were tricked into becoming prostitutes and did not expect or know that they would end up in this position as they dealt with the debt associated with getting a visa and a room in Hong Kong? I guess I will have to stick strictly to locals?


Well, I guess there is no guaranteed way to know, but one could attempt to guess from the overall environment, or could go as far as paying the girl for an honest answer. Simple questions like: How did you end up doing this? Were you aware when you took the debt that you would be repaying it doing this? Have you been threatened if you wanted out? Ofcourse, there is no guarantee that the girl will answer honestly. Another way of doing it would be some really involved police operation, but unfortunately, I am not Sherlock Holmes.


I am not trying to be under any illusion. I am not trying to apply my values. I am trying to make my actions be consistent with the values I choose to follow. I don't believe I am under an extremely unrealistic illusion. Again, my only value here is punting with consenting girls. This is possible in many parts of the world, and should be possible in HK.


Haha, I would not mind picking up some sexy Filippinas.

the part that disturbs me about this post is you want to inject your values in punting which I think is commendable because they're your values and you believe in them … yet you refer the WGs as 'meat' in your headline … just my interpretation of what you've been saying which raises question marks in my head

[ Last edited by  twiceAweek at 13-5-2014 12:51 ]

One reason I like seeing long term independents is that the issue of trafficking doesn't enter into it at all.

But I do agree with the OP that there is a difference between someone who becomes a WG for economic benefit versus one who becomes a WG to get out of some kind of debt she didn't realize she was getting into. I don't believe I've ever been with the latter, but if someone were to ask me "how can I know for absolute certain", I'm not sure I'd have a good answer. I have talked to a lot of girls over the years though, in an attempt to discover "how it all works".

Gherk

Just to clarify: I say "meat" to metaphorically refer to the fact that they are new to the HK market, not to dehumanize them. I hope this clears the questions marks from your head.

I'm sure there are many punters who, like me, would never knowingly punt with any person who is a victim of human trafficking. But, the term is thrown around in so many contexts that it may not be clear exactly what the world's definition of human trafficking is.

I found this Wikipedia article on the United Nations Protocol to Prevent, Suppress, and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children to be informative.

Note that using the definition in this article, women who are enticed into an agreement with someone where they are promised a job, such as dancing or domestic help, but who are then prostituted, are considered trafficked, even if it is done locally (i.e.: without moving the woman to another location). And of course, women who are actually forced into the profession would be considered trafficked.

But I think it is important to notice that women who knowingly contract with an organization to obtain sex work, would not be considered trafficked, as long as the terms of that contract were not fraudulent.

In summary, women who choose to advance themselves economically by entering the sex work profession, even if they do it using the help of an organization that provides a venue for the work, provides customers, provides room and board, and so on, don't seem to me to meet the standard of being trafficked. The line, it seems to me, is where the woman is either forced into sex work, prevented from leaving sex work, or enticed into the business via fraudulent claims about what the work involves.

Here is an interesting article about how "everyone" in prostitution is nowadays presumed to be trafficked.

In closing, I want to say that I have asked many many women how they got into the business. Almost invariably, the answer comes back something like this "I had a friend who did it and seemed to do well with it, so I thought I'd give it a try." While I'm sure these aren't the only kinds of women out there in the business, these are the ones I find myself in front of. I'm sure there's plenty of human trafficking going on, but it seems not too hard to organize one's punting to stay well away from them.

Gherk

[ Last edited by  ggherkin at 16-5-2014 11:55 ]