Zi Teng is a Hong Kong Non-Governmental organization (mostly social workers) that support the cause of WG enjoying the same human rights as people with other jobs. We enjoy all of our civil liberties why should not they? An injustice to one is a threat to the justice of everyone. Plus these are people with whom we have intimate contacts. We should be close to them & in solidarity with them.  Even if we think of them as our  employees, we still want them to enjoy the right not to be hassled by police, the right to rent apartments themselves (not through intermediaries), etc. To understand Zi Teng & the plight of many WGs please go to www.ziteng.org.hk/
Secondly, a related question is unionization. Should WGs have a union? Should we support them in this effort. This would really show our solidarity with them if we came for unionization. In this regard, check out www.iusw.org which is the International Union of Sex Workers. What do you think?

I would say yes.  From a purely selfish point of view, improving the working conditions of WG's ultimately improves life for us their clients.  Having the sex trade exist in the shadows in grotty conditions benefits no-one except politicians.

I do disagree with the characterization of WG's as our employees though.  I've seen it in a few places, and while humorous it is inaccurate.  An employer employee relationship has these characteristics.  Prospective employee applies for a job, employer considers and then hires, employer provides workplace, and sets the working conditions.  Employer sets the wages and duties and employee either accepts or rejects.

Now a WG advertises her services, we call and she decides if she will accept us.  She provides the workplace, she determines what is on the menu, and she sets the price.  We either accept or reject those conditions.  They are independent entrepreneurs and we are their clients.  Neither party has the right to demand the other to do anything other than fulfill an agreed upon contract.  And then the only recourse is to end the business relationship.  

If you think about it any other way you start down the road to 'disciplining the bad employee' as some goofs think that they have the right to do.

I know a bit of Ziteng but of 2 minds/have no opinion one way or the other about this organization.
As far as I know, this organization only has LOCAL WG members - who are in a definite minority versus all the PRC imports as well as those from other SE asian countries.  These local WG's are at quite a  competitive disadvantage versus their younger and more exotic PRC/overseas counter part.  Since it is mainly for a small number of local WG's this organization really does NOT have a cogent representation for all WG's here. Yes, they've done a few things to sort of "protect/nurture" the local WG's but as it is, I think their impact is necessarily quite minimal.

But on unionization of WG's - I DO have strong objections against even any thoughts on this.  I realize that you are probably on a bit of a personal crusade to better the conditions of working gals and in particular one gal who you have an interest in.....as per your other thread. I also realize that you're from Canada where unions are a fact of life - BUT, have you considered what it means to us punters in Hong Kong.

What, get girls to unionize and impose not only higher charges, but also "proper working conditions?" Hows that gonna be advantageous to us mongers? What next, have the Hong Kong government to back their demands?

Look-it, with all due respect,  the mongering scene in Hong Kong is fine just as it is IMHO - we don't need the kind of nonsense that happens in North America. Sorry, but this is jsut the hard facts coming from a monger whose interest is in the well-being of the client instead of the WG's.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 4-1-2012 16:44 ]

Just wondering what you mean by nonsense in N.America.

The sex trade is pretty much universally underground here - almost no real change is happening.  There is a supreme court case here in Canada that may improve something, but I think a win actually might be a loss as the right wing gov't over-reacts.

WG's can't have any support - illegal to work together, can't have anyone working as security, can't (legally) advertise...  Can't even have a boyfriend as he could be charged with 'living off the avails' ...It drives everything underground where there is no support and strong-arm pimping and drug addiction is common.  

Contrast that to countries were the sex trade is better tolerated, or regulated.  There are better conditions for both the men and the women.  Sauna's can hire and train staff, testing protects everyone, and everyone is more relaxed without worrying if the door will be kicked in - and if it is by whom.

The basic principles of British Common law applies in most Commonweatlh countries including Canada and also in Hong Kong up-to-date.

Basic principles as the right of anybody to be a prostitute - but its in the application of the ancillary laws etc - based upon supposed "community values" that differ between Hong Kong and Canada. In Canada, solicitation is a big no-no and it could be applied to both provider as well as procurer. Yes, we sort of have the same laws which right now is only applied against the WG; but like most things in Asia, we in Hong Kong have found comfort in the way that things are right now/being accomodated for. As far as I'm concerned/IMHO, we are OK thank you very much and don't need any importation of Western values or whatever it is that you might be thinking to rock the boat.

SEAJ

My problem with orgs like Zi Teng are the more strident members.  I don't know a lot about Zi Teng - their principles seem good, their handbook useful, and I wouldn't classify a home-grown organization as bent on importing Western values - but these NGO's often develop a bit of mission creep.

One day they are as the OP said about protecting basic civil liberties, but then once an NGO's original goal is achieved, does the organization disband and say Mission Accomplished?  Usually not, they find a new issue to rally behind - and that new issue might not be anything like the original.

But should a few working girls be able to form a partnership, hang up their shingle and hire a receptionist, security guard and more talent?  Sure.  Where's the harm?

Sorry - but you REALLY think this is gonna be the scene that plays out?

You don't think that the nefarious characters that ARE always lurking and trying to capitailize on the actual "work' that the WG does is gonna let this rose tinted scene actually happen?

This is one reason why there are laws against living off the proceeds from prostitution; the "receptionist and the Security Guards" you so nicely refer to them as being are instead gonna be the boss and enforcer....whilst taking away a much larger chunk of the earnings as they're now right there to control more of this trade.

SEAJ

Ps edit
All I'm saying is - look at what we've got in Hong Kong/Asia for US PUNTERS versus what it is in Western Countries. And I say forgeddaboutit.... talkin' about what it should instead be. As it is and for myself - I like it just the way it is right now - including all the warts and pimples etc - as conditions favour US PUNTERS just fine.

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 4-1-2012 23:31 ]

Thanks, yahoo, for your points. Regarding your first --yes the working conditions of the WG (such as health & safety) are connected to our experience punting. If they're working in unsafe environments that means we're mongering in unsafe environments.
To your second point about employee status versus private contractor --regardless it is us who have the money & that means it is indeed us who are determining the working conditions of the WG along with the authorities (who hassle them). Golden Rule --we got the gold so we make the rules.

Interesting points on both sides. SEAJ is standing up for the perspective of the punter, --but we're not the problem. (usually, I mean I think is very rare for a punter to be violent towards a WG). No, the problem is the poor treatment the WGs receive from the police & the rest of society --especially all of those that do not have HKID. Having mistreatment, beatings, rapes, deputation, as an ignored (meaning accepted) part of their working life does have an effect on them --and then indirectly on us.
You expressed concern about price. I asked "if being a WG could be made safer & more normalized would you charge a lower rate?". The answer has always been "yes". Part of what they are charging for in being a WG is not only for the sex but also for the risks they take. Can't we BOTH enjoy rehire services AND fight to improve their conditions & job satisfaction.

Whoa.... you've really taken on the cause of these do-good NGO's supposedly working for the benefit of the "enslaved and trafficked" ladies aintcha??

Well...OK, I'm not gonna say that this does not happen in Hong Kong - but I'd say that the very large majority of the gals that does do this work do so voluntarily and is to them a means to an end - that of earning money.  Mistreatment, beatings, rapes, deputation ???  WOT??!!  You really got to give balance to all those documentaries and shrill advertisements in the Western World.

As for that part about "....if being a WG could be made safer & more normalized would you charge a lower rate?"...." who in the world have you been conducting your "fact finding and research" with? OK, I for one have never asked such a question of ANY WG's - you mean you had actually asked this?  A sample size of how many? What nationality and under what laws were they working under?  Even the basic premise is laughable for alongside legalization there comes taxation, administrative costs and whatever else PLUS now that it is now "legal" then they will be able to - like you suggest - unionize and drive prices up. Why shouldn't they then?

Look-it Gweilo - somebody gains, usually somebody else loses...especially in case of the P4P world.  There's no such thing as a win-win situation for this world.

SEAJ

You're right, IMHO, about the majority being in the game voluntarily & do it make $.so for them it is work. So we're not at all talking about enslavement or trafficking --which is a different & legitimate police issue. My sources are Zi Teng (which is local not Western) & my friend Kary & her friends ( all of whom are WGs). They put up with a lot, yes, I asked them this question & yes this was their response. I do not agree with you that it is a "zero sum game" --that for them to benefit someone else (punting clients) have to loose. No, the kinds of civil rights Zi Teng advocates would make life better for WGs & therefore we are dealing with (enjoying the services of) a happier, less stressed person. Both benefit.

Hate to break it to you - but your Kary does seem like the perfect fit for ZiTeng - which mainly composes of a VERY SMALL NUMBER of older local sex workers, who knows that they can't really compete with other sex workers from China and the rest of the world.  IMHO, Ziteng represents a small number of mainly disgruntled - and mostly out of work - sex-workers who will rally to whatever they think can benefit themselves .....as such disadvantaged workers.

No wonder your views are such ..........since your source of information is so biased/tainted!

And how is it NOT a zero sum game if I as a punter am only interested to pay money for services rendered? If they make more money, I have to pay more - and as far as all that old chestnut you mention about safer working conditions - how much safer do I need for it to be in Hong Kong?

Nah....you last reply has now instead made me start to go AGAINST supporting Ziteng vs. prior when I wasn't even concerned/had no opinion one way or the other about them.

SEAJ

Gweilo69.... is this WG friend of yours the same one that you are in love with in your earlier post?  Here...

http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/v ... &extra=page%3D1

A close friend would level with you and say that you are being duped and are being too nice to a girl who is taking advantage of your kindness.  We're bros so I'm just saying it like it is.  Sorry bro!

[ Last edited by  Jimstevens at 5-1-2012 11:30 ]

While I agree with some of your points I find your arguements odd...

Prostitution is much better in HK than the west because it is MUCH more accepted here than the west.  Given it is more accepted the gals have a safer, better  environment with less chances of imprisonment, trafficking, etc.  As a result A LOT more gals choose to join the trade and supply goes WAY up prices WAY down.  HK is cheap as hell compared to anywhere in the west and Supply is the reason.  

So..., if the legal scene became even more "normalized" for the sex trade supply would increase even more.  Amsterdam is a good example - cheapest P4P sex in the developed west..., why?  Many more hookers.  Why?  It is legal:  no risk or prosecution and little harassment.

So:  a better legal environment for WGs ABSOLUTELY benefits punters!!  More supply of gals, cheaper prices, safer environments.

Prohibition of any vice NEVER reduces prices.  Look at alcohol in the U.S. During the 30's.  Highest prices ever and for shit product.  Or look at th price of marijuanna - a frickn weed that grows damn near anywhere.  1,000 times the price of rape-seed or corn.  Why?  Prohibition.  Demand for pot is much less than corn, is easier to grow, yet prices are astronomically higher, quality is variable, and transactions are risky.  Always the case.....

Your economics are off, Bro.

[ Last edited by  wander at 5-1-2012 11:57 ]

MY point is that prostitution IS legal here. The only strictures against this trade are under-aged girls (good!) and illegal employment in contravention of a visitor's conditions of stay (what's wrong with that? It applies to ANY employment).

How much more "legal" do you want it to be in Hong Kong? Legal like in that they're liable for taxation? Legal like there'd be actual legal brothels i/o 141's ...which as I pointed above is NOT gonna be a nice li'l hooker's cooperative - given the strength of the Triads here. Legal like there'd be mandatory STD testing....and the spawning of Quacks churning out these certificates of health? Legal like a requirement for licenses?

Do you know how long and how many bureaucrats are involved in even granting a simple Restaurant license? How many gals do you think are gonna apply for a license...and keep accounting records, and renew licenses, and be subject to spot checks as to adherence to the conditions of license? Heck, they do that, they may as well go and do something else - especially if your scenario pans out that prices are gonna drop - to the point that instead of hooking they could earn as much doing........!

Amsterdam?? Yes, in the "legal" brothels" but the underground P4P trade is rife with drug addicted WG's and rife with all sorts of dangers....and still rife.  And as you pointed out - still higher priced than it is in Hong Kong whilst Amsterdam's proximity to Africa and the Balkan States also provides ample supply of willing workers....who nowadays even comes to Hong Kong to ply their trade i/o there. WHY??? when the price they could get for their services in Amsterdam is higher than Hong Kong, that they would still come out here?

But the  question in my mind is - what do YOU and Gweilo think that our P4P trade should be? Like in Canada where he's from? Like the U.S., Britain, Australia, Japan - wherever!  WHAT??!!
As far as I'm concerned, I think I got it good here (actually that should be WE, as it is my POV of what I THINK most punters here feel! LMAO!) - and I'm totally against rocking the boat.

SEAJ

Ps edit:

And do you guys really think discussing this here - or anywhere else in Hong Kong for that matter - do you guys really think you can change the way things are??!  Yes, monumental changes usually occurs from ONE individual who has a great idea and is willing to work on it - is your and Gweilo's idea THAT great?
Having said that though, I DO enjoy a good debate - especially on this forum - as we most time somehow or other do keep out all "personalities" out and do NOT usually degenerate to Flaming wars etc.  That's what's great here!!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 5-1-2012 13:36 ]

Jeez I wrote a big long winded reply, and my computer crashed.  Probably for the best...

Gweilo: I can see you trying to steer the conversation back to your obsession with Kary and all she "puts up with" but I'll leave that for your other thread.  Allow me to restate your question as 'does the agenda that agencies like Zi Teng promote help or hurt punters?'

SEAJ:
I argue that it always helps us, but paradoxically doesn't always help the girls.  I definately don't like paying the N.American prices for my whoring.  Macau has huge legal adult sauna's but you don't see row on row of N.A. girls there - why not?  because they are making a killing here for thousands a night.

Am I looking through rose coloured glasses?  Sure I am to a point.  There will always be pimps taking advantage of girls who haven't figured out how to survive on their own.  But HK's legal exception for 141's proves my point.  In a legally supportive environment, private non-criminal businesses can survive.

One hypothetical question regarding cost.  Suppose we were to make two small changes to Hong Kong's laws.  Allow up to 3 girls to share a flat.  Extend visas from 1 month to 6.  Would the prices go up or down?  Good for punters or not?  Good for girls???  What to you think Gweilo69?  Would your friend welcome all the extra competition?

Know what, this discussion really has made me think about Ziteng (something I never used to think of much in the past) and now I can see that their "program" is only a self-serving agenda.

A handful of "past due date" local WG's sitting around bemoaning their lot as they see their "custom" go to the hot PRC gals operating out of hotels and even down the hall from where they're at.  Some well meaning Western leaning do-gooder telling them ' "Hey, get organized, get everybody to join up, get yourself some legal protection, mass rally against how the police treat y'all,..."  and few more old gals join in and .... go sit around....and still their custom go to their younger counterparts!

You let Ziteng have their way and all we'll have in HOng Kong is a bunch of old but local WG's - for hey, you need to be licensed/regulated/legalized to operate as a WG here!!

Specific to your question Yazoo - again the question I had - do you really think that such brothels are gonna be a nice li'l cooperative offering nice legal brothel services?

And extend their visa to 6 month?? You gotta be kidding - 6 months whilst their condition of stay precludes them from working in Hong Kong...as it should be here and is the case in most other parts of the world. Or do you propose a 6 months visa for Hookers to Hook in Hong Kong? LMAO!

SEAJ

Ps edit
And Macau makes for a good case in point; just an hour away and both on the border of the PRC where most "supply" comes from - and what do we have? HIGH prices as it's only large organizations that can afford to start up "facilities" and keep out all the riff-raff Mom/Pop operations.  Just about everything to do with P4P is owned/operated by large organizations....and you make up your own mind if they're "nice" organizations or "un-nice" organization! LOL!
And just 10 minutes WALK away on the land border crossing...prices at half or even QUARTER of what they are in Macau....in Zhuhai where prostitution is totally illegal and subject to harsh penalties for everybody - WG's and customer!!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 5-1-2012 20:17 ]

I think that Macau's regime is a lot better than HK's.  Well tolerated, girls there on visa's, comfortable environments for punters and girls.  I don't see the huge bureaucracy that your fear, although the prices are weird numbers - taxes built in?

Put it this way I spend twice the money here for a B&S past-their-best-before-date on a mattress on a floor than I would for a young girl that I can check out first, in a great room with mirrors everywhere.  And what is the difference.  Here in N.A. everything is hiding in the shadows.  You pay the risk premium with money and also with conditions.

And my question was hypothetical.  I agree with Wander - your economics are off.  You increase the supply you reduce the price.  My hypothetical adjustments were to prove the point.  

And the one month IS entirely arbitrary.  Why not six weeks, two months whatever?  I'm sure the border guard processing this chick from the mainland who's here on her 4th 'vacation' knows what's up.  But that's not my point.

My point is that your has-been old ladies who are advocating better conditions for WG's are actually improving things for everyone.  

You mock about paying taxes...  No, you are not going to get a hooker to fill out a six page form, but I didn't bring up taxes.  If someone wants to tax the industry, tax the landlord - put a room tax.

And yes, decriminalization reduces criminal activity.  Look at all the drug killings in Mexico.  Prohibition creates more crime - its almost self-evident.  Your triad gangs aren't making money from the girls' labour, otherwise they'd be big into maid service or something.  They make their money from the fact that we'll pay a hefty risk premium.  Take the risk away and they have no edge.

Umm, who said we want prostitution to be like it is in the west???  No one. It sucks there because the trade is even MORE underground.  This is my point - the less underground it is the better it is for everyone.

The trade is "legal" here in HK exactly as it is in Canada - barely.  There are so many restrictions it remains driven underground and in the hands of triads or with the gals subject to police harassment.  It is more culturally accepted here, which makes it less risky as the police don't target it as aggressively as they do in the west.  

Booze was in the hands of the mob only until prohibition ended - then their value to the trade (production, smuggling and retail) vanished.  Another example - cocaine was available legally in pharmacies for mere pennies during the 1880's - only the criminalization of it turned it into a cash-cow controlled by gangsters and rife with crime.  Likewise, if all the restrictions about WGs Visas, security, managers, roommates, soliciting where dropped the triad involvement would tumble naturally.  Just like ending prohibition did with the american mobs.  

Finally, do I expect such too happen?  Not anytime soon, maybe never.  But countries ARE slowly getting more liberal about it.  Anyway, my points are more rhetorical in nature - more about the economics and business of it.  Having it underground does NOT benefit the girls or punters in any way.  It just allows underground middlemen to control it and take their cut.

How are you gonna increase the supply when, if as you propose, there is gonna be "legal" houses.  How does a PRC gal get "licensed" to go and work at these "legal Houses" when they are not even entitled to work AT ALL in Hong Kong? And with making some places/people "legal" they're also gonna make others ILLEGAL. And as the law abiding citizens that most of us are - do you think that we would then dare to go to a unlicensed house/gal?? HUH? Good Question?!

This is NOT NA or EU where labor mobility is a given. People cannot just come over and start working here legally!  Don't matter how many weeks or months they can visit - they cain't work period!  And that's the way it should be!

And like I pointed out to wander - its got nothing to do with economics - it is just what it is...and I much prefer to have it stay as it is. Let Ziteng bleat and blast, let the do-gooders bemoan the supposedly horrid fate of the gals - but just leave things well enough alone!!  

Heck, wander would be the first one to go up the wall if we made things legal - coz then all his Hunnies from SE Asia and his DH's are NOT gonna dare to work illegally!!  Wot say you wander??  LMAO!

Nah.... this post has instead turned me totally OFF Ziteng!! Worse thing to come to us punter's horizon!!

SEAJ

///////////////
Reply #19 wander's post
MY arguments always go too far???
first, I'd say this is NOT an argument - its a debate, pure and simple...and that statement quite unnecessary as its personal, so....!! Agree?!

Anyway...OK... lets go along with your suggestion to make it more "legal" - do you really think that Big business (and in the case of such a trade, NOT necessarily "nice" big business!) is gonna then stay out of it?  Are they out of it in Macau? NO - in fact they're right in it and I'd opine control and take much worse advantage of the WG's there ... way much more than in Hong Kong.

And you go on and on about Booze and Cocaine and MaryJane (which BTW - we actually are PROHIBITED from discussing on this board) - so OK, lets talk about Booze and the prohibition era. First thing first - we DO NOT HAVE PROHIBITION AGAINST PROSTITUTION IN HONG KONG!! It's the unsavory ancillary activities that we do have against it....which actually was specifically designed  to PROTECT the WG's against exploitation by nefarious characters.  Yes, its application has sometimes been sort of bent to suit the needs to satisfy the moral crusaders...but its main intent had been to protect sex workers. Ziteng...and wander LMAO - comes along and wants to change things - TO WHAT???!!

SEAJ

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What the heck are you saying?
They ARE here in droves and its only the Hong Kong Immigration laws that is sort of keeping a check on these numbers.
What "Odd conclusions" are you talking about??!!

///////////


Yes - ANY middlemen cut is abhorent - but you "completely legalize" it and the end result is that the legal middlemen cut is gonna be a heckuva lot larger...and with it being flaunted/not needed to be hush hush no more. No more money laundering needed, no more trying to hide it - all in the open and controlled by a few big boys!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 5-1-2012 15:27 ]