Just a quick question, anyone know if its better to punt in China as a US citizen or with a HK ID (and the return to China card).

I'm a US citizen but was born in HK.  I dont have the HK ID card yet but can apply for it.  Just wondering if its worth the trouble to get that and then goin into China with the Return to China card.

I was told you can get US consular service and all that if you go in with the HK ID.  Not that I anticipate any trouble or anything...
Just that getting the China visa and having passport stamped everytime is kind of inconvenient for people with no legitimate business in
China.  Having the Return to China card just seems cool.  Swipe n go!  No trace , no nothing.

What do you guys think?

You asked the question, you answered it yourself.


Just go get one, easy process and fast.

Thank you.

[ Last edited by  hunter at 27-5-2011 09:41 ]

If you have a HKID you still need a china visa.  Im referring to the green colored card.


My ethnic Chinese friends who were born in HK have ANOTHER card it's red, and it allows them the free back and forth access to China no visa.

I also know people who are BORN in HK but not ethnic Chinese and they have a HKIDbut STLL need a visa to enter China and have no access to the red card.


So if you are ethnic Chinese a believe you have access to a red card to get in and outof china.  I know people with UK passports who are ethnic Chinese who have this red card.

You may need to get more details from a bro who has access to this red card as these are my observations as a USA non ethnic Chinese person.

Punting aside, you really have nothing to lose but everything to gain from getting your HK ID and china permit.

Since your born in HK your HKID would be permanent with the Right of Abode which gives you the right to legally reside in Hong Kong. If you were to ever look for work in Hong Kong having a HKID would make life much much easier for you since you won't need your company to sponsor you for a working visa.

With the China permit, you would be able to enter/exit China as you please saving you time and money.

Not true. Even being ethnic Chinese, if you are born outside of HK, in-order to be eligible for the China permit you will first need to get the HKSAR passport - this is a pre-requisite.
It isnt easy either getting a HKSAR passport. I applied for it a year ago and my application got rejected on the basis that I wasn't born in HK and my parents had already left HK at that time.

It was much easier getting the red card 10 years ago but things have changed alot since.

Ah ok.   The people I know are a bit older and have UK passports and such.  They would have gotten their red cards long ago or were grandfathered in.

But HK born ethnic Chinese get the red card access easily right?

You have to weigh convenience vs a bit of US consular protection.  And you CAN choose to have BOTH methods at your disposal and use either one depending on your d'ruthers/purpose of the particular visit to China when using either way.

If you were born in Hong Kong - definitely get back your HK Identity card for ease of entry back to Hong Kong (and all the other rights associated with such, including the right to work here).  with this HKID showing 3 stars and the right to permananent residence here spelled out at the back, go to a China travel office and apply for your "Home Return Permit" - the red card mentioned above. Both applications NOT a difficult process - but just a bit time-consuming. Time that you will get back in the convenience factor in its usage for your trips into China.

And what smokeyblaze refers to is IF you were born outside of HongKong/China from parents with the right of abode in HOng KOng; this does NOT apply to you.  Note, even if you WERE going to be eligible for the SAR passport - IN THE CASE THAT YOU WERE BORN OUTSIDE OF HKG/CHINA FROM HK PERMANENT RESIDENT PARENTS - you would be required to give up your foreign national passport.

SEAJ

No.

5 years ago, as long as you are Chinese and have a permanent HKID, you can easily get the red card.
Now u need to give up your current citizenship, and apply for HKSAR passport or PRC passport before you can get the red card (回乡证)

I have 3 stars on my HKID, but i still can't get the red card.
tried applying twice.
they told me to give up my current passport and apply for HKSAR passport before they even CONSIDER my red card application.

Edit: Maybe i'm wrong.

[ Last edited by  kaka at 27-5-2011 14:38 ]

Were you born outside of Hong Kong/China of HKG belonger parents? Thus entitling you to the right of abode in Hong Kong/your 3 stars on your HKID?

I don't THINK that if you were born in HKG/China that you would need to apply for an SAR passport prior to you applying for the home return permit. (and you may need to then produce your birth certificate or some other proof).

It's only when you write that you were born outside of HKG/China that the processing officer would tell you to first apply for an SAR passport.

The reasoning being that although you were a Chinese National at birth (by virtue of your Chinese parents), the fact that you had obtained citizenship of another sovereignty - and pledged allegiance to that Foreign sovereign - you had already given up your Chinese nationality.  Thus you would need to "renounce" such allegiance to the foreign sovereign to get back your Chinese nationality.

If you wrote down on your application for the HRP that you were born in HKG/China - they will just accept your application and approve it.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 27-5-2011 12:22 ]

i have seen the immigration officer many times.

it's simple, he told me.

regardless where you are born, if you want the red card.
only 2 criteria.

1) You must have 3star HKID.
2) You must have HKSAR or PRC passport.

i have HKID.
but i don't want to give up my current passport, so no way i can apply for red card.

anyway doesn't matter, because i now have China Resident Permit.
so i can stay in China for up to 1 year, no need for visa.

Ditto - for myself as well as for/accompanying others who wants to have the HRP.

BUT - like I said, if you can put down on the HRP application form that you were born in Hong Kong/China at China Travel, then you would not need to even go to the Hong Kong immigration department and all that rigamarole with applying for an SAR passport. Where you were born is THE important criteria and not regardless.

Can you imagine just how long the queues at the Hong Kong immigration department would be - longer than what it already is - if China Travel insists that everybody is required to have an SAR passport PRIOR to getting a HRP? Nah.

SEAJ
Ps edit:

And China travel can easily determine if you were born in HKG/China by the 2 letters after your 3 stars and underneath your DOB on your HK ID card. If the second letter is "O" - that indicates that you were born "Overseas"

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 27-5-2011 14:27 ]

oh i forgot to mention.

my 2nd letter is O.

that's why your method doesn't apply for me.

I need to have either HKSAR or PRC passport.

Precisely - from what I can determine, you were born OVERSEAS but of Hong Kong belonger parents/having satisfied the legal requirement for such by having ordinary/permanent/legal residence of over 7 years in Hong Kong) - thus entitling you to your 3 star HKID.

But having been born overseas and taking up that country's citizenship (and swearing your allegiance to that country) you are now required to un-swear yourself of such (thus giving up your passport and foreign nationality) to RESUME your Chinese nationality and allegiance.

This requirement does NOT apply to those born in China/Hong Kong and obtaining foreign passport as their bona-fides as Chinese Citizen - by virtue of them being born here - is NOT questioned/does not apply for the application of a HRP.

So yes, YOU CANNOT get a HRP unless you follow the above steps - but people like the OP/bigswingingdik (Jeez just how big do you actually claim to be???!! Modesty must NOT be your middle name. Jeez!), can very easily obtain such just by going to a China Travel office with his 3 star HKID card with the second letter indicating his birth in HKG/China (I think the letter Z)

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 27-5-2011 14:53 ]

HK ID Card and HK permanent residency are common to each other or you can have one but not the other???

I would do whatever is necessary to pay HK tax rates...

Regarding the Residency question:-

Everyone who lives in Hong Kong must register for a Hong Kong ID - regardless of their level of entitlement to residency or not.  

Permanent Residency is something Hong Kong Citizens have, plus those who have lived in HK (with a clean record) for 7 years may apply for Permanent Residency.  Of course, someone with Permanent Residency will have a different class of HKID, but it's still a HKID.  

China Travel pass depends on criteria set by the Chinese Govt, not by HKSAR Govt, which means different rules apply.  To a layman it looks like it was created by the Chinese Govt to make it attractive for people who have Chinese ancestry to reveal their ethnicity and subject themselves to a degree of Chinese Govt authority and regulation.  
Certainly makes it easier to go in and out of China if you have one ... BUT ...

... I have to wonder if you enter China with a China Travel Pass, you may have different rights inside China, compared to someone who enters with a US Passportand a visa.  It would be harder (but I guess still possible) for the US consulate to claim jurisdiction over you if you've declared yourself as an "Overseas Chinese" by presenting a China-issued travel document at the border.  If you did not apply for and use a foreigners' Entry Visa to enter, they can legitimately treat you as a local - with all the downsides that means.


Regarding the Tax question:-  

Hong Kong tax has nothing whatsoever to do with Hong Kong residency.  

If you earn in Hong Kong, you must pay tax in Hong Kong regardless of whether you are resident or not.  Conversely (the good news) if your income is sourced outside of Hong Kong you are NOT required to pay Hong Kong tax on that part of your income, even if you were living in Hong Kong at the time.  
This means tax planning can get interesting if (for example) you're managing different offices around the Asia - or if you do consulting jobs that take you outside Hong Kong - you can set aside part of your income as being exempt from HK tax ... of course that's not necessarily a smart thing to do, because it might mean you create the obligation to file and pay taxes in the other country.  But if you really look into it there are loopholes you can benefit from if you do the homework in advance, and keep excellent records ...

For US citizens they have to pay tax to US at US rates even they pay HK tax ... poor dears ...

... so it's hardly surprising that the waiting list at the US Embassy to surrender US citizenship is several months long

[ Last edited by  DArtagnan at 27-5-2011 15:59 ]

All that you've stated in your post is 100% - just wanted to add the relvance of your statement


as this point is central to the question being asked on this thread.

From anectodal evidence and as have been shown from previous cases, ANYBODY - whether citizen/passport holder of another country or not - who enters China using the Home return permit is treated as an ordinary Chinese citizen by the Chinese Government and there is NO  foreign country diplomatic channels/appeals for those caught in violation of the PRC laws.

For a foreign country to do so will be loudly proclaimed/condemned by the Chinese government as interference in the Internal affairs of China....and had been shown from past cases, to instead make the case WORSE for the person concerned.

So, if you do want a bit of the consular protection afforded ONLY by the use of your own country's passort, you MUST use this passport to enter China and NOT use the HRP.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 27-5-2011 16:40 ]

I heard the same - be good to have it verified by someone who has 1st hand experience ... anyone??

From Wiki, http://webcache.googleuserconten ... urce=www.google.com

"Dual citizenship is associated with two categories of security concerns in the United States: foreign influence and foreign preference. Contrary to common misconceptions, dual citizenship in itself is not the major problem in obtaining or retaining security clearance in the United States. As a matter of fact, if a security clearance applicant's dual citizenship is "based solely on parents' citizenship or birth in a foreign country", that can be a mitigating condition.[26] However, exercising (taking advantage of the entitlements of) a non-U.S. citizenship can cause problems. For example, possession and/or use of a foreign passport is a condition disqualifying from security clearance and "... is not mitigated by reasons of personal convenience, safety, requirements of foreign law, or the identity of the foreign country" as is explicitly clarified in a Department of Defense policy memorandum which defines a guideline requiring that "... any clearance be denied or revoked unless the applicant surrenders the foreign passport or obtains official permission for its use from the appropriate agency of the United States Government".[27] This guideline has been followed in administrative rulings by the United States Department of Defense (DoD) Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) office of Industrial Security Clearance Review (ISCR), which decides cases involving security clearances for Contractor personnel doing classified work for all DoD components. In one such case, an administrative judge ruled that it is not clearly consistent with U.S. national interest to grant a request for a security clearance to an applicant who was a dual national of the U.S. and Ireland.[28]"

If you have a security clearance or plan on applying for a job that requires security clearance, you may want to reconsider.  


As for US income tax, there is a foreign tax credit, http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=183263,00.html.

"Qualifying Foreign Taxes
You can claim a credit only for foreign taxes that are imposed on you by a foreign country or US possession. Generally, only income, war profits and excess profits taxes qualify for the credit.

What Foreign Taxes Qualify For The Foreign Tax Credit?

Generally, the following four tests must be met for any foreign tax to qualify for the credit:

The tax must be imposed on you
You must have paid or accrued the tax
The tax must be the legal and actual foreign tax liability
The tax must be an income tax (or a tax in lieu of an income tax)"

cool thanks.  thats the info i was looking for.  will stilll get the HKID but will prob enter with US passport if main purpose i punting.   (i was born in HK btw, ethnic chinese so i can definitely get the wuo hurng jing just dont know if its worth the trouble.

one adavantage i can think of is that they wont stamp it right, unlike the passport?
so i can tell wifey i goin to HK and slip away to DG without a trace?

My understanding is that dual citizenship is cool with lots of countries, including the US.  However, which ever country you enter into, you will be under the protection of the "home" country only with the passport that you used to enter with.  So if you enter China with your Chinese passport, you will not have the US consulate rights as a US citizen.  
That's what a lawyer friend told me when i told him that I will start using my HK passport to go to Russia to avoid the $250 visa that Russia charges US passports.