Shame on me for insisting on taking your words at face value, instead of just accepting what you say they mean.

As for the rest, I've already given a perfectly valid rebuttal of this in post #83. If anyone wishes to understand where the straight-talking Jake and I disagree on the subject of interpretation, read that post.

And my posts #126 and #139 were to the point, regardless of how the target keeps attempting to redefine the argument.

In any case, the debate has now degenerated to the yes you did, no I didn't level. And seeing that everything that I wanted to say on this subject has already been said, I think I'll let posterity decide the issue. Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

Do you really believe that that all these girls have no other choice than to become WGs? Why would you think that?

Then you say ...


OK, you don't think it's easy. But, presumably, you do agree that they do it to make a lot of money fast. I mean, what other
reason could there possibly be?

So, I suppose that, in a way, you're right. These girls want to make a lot of money fast and becoming a WG is the only way they
can do it. Hmmmm - and I'm supposed to respect that. Well, at least it's better than cherry_picker's alternative of turning to crime.

Bro, I know you want to believe these girls are good. I mean, they're so young and cute and pretty - how could they not be good?
And you want to believe that they don't really want to do this work but they have no other choice. Well, if it makes you feel better
believe it - no harm done.

To save Mars the trouble, I'll now give his interpretation  - Jake says all WGs are no good. It doesn't say that, but that's what Jake
means. Actually, I have no idea whether these girls are good or not - how could I since I don't know them. But we do know that
they want to make quick money and are prepared to shag 10 guys a day to do it. Based on that information you can make your own
judgement - or not.

Mars, you're just unbelievable - there's your parallel universe again - everything is backwards.

I'm the one saying just take my words at face value - you're the one insisting on telling me what they really mean.
I don't need to say what they mean - they mean what they say. Just read them and accept.

It's like the twilight zone.

You just won't let it die will you.


I hear Oh Lord, and I tried, in my humble way, to do just that. But words, even Yours, are treacherous little buggers and don't always do as they're told.

Once written, your words are on their own bro. You can only make claims about what you intended to say; the actual meaning of what you wrote is open to interpretation. That's what communication is all about. Language is governed by rules independent of the will of whoever utters the words in question. People are always expressing thoughts using words that reveal, unconsciously or not, more than they intended to say, and we spend our lives trying to tease out what was really meant.

I gave several perfectly convincing examples of this in post #83. If, after reading that, you still insist that you never said what you clearly did say, then it is you who is living in a parallel universe my friend.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 17-2-2008 16:20 ]

I mentioned a WG in an earlier post who has come to HK to put together 500.000 HK to return to Guilin to start her own business. I told how she is saving every penny she makes - no Gucci bags or any of the other stuff that so many women waste their money on. After 3 mths, she's now about 1/3 of her way towards her goal. But old Jake with all the advantages and opportunities that come from being a Brit with a decent education thinks she should tough it out making 4 RMB/hr in some sweat shop in Shenzhen getting nowhere because 'shaging 10 guys a day' affronts his delicate sensibilities. Well if it's a question of breaking your back for nothing or doing what's actually doable to improve your lot in the world, guess who gets my respect? I don't see a flawed character - I see strength and determination. But then, I'm sure that if I felt that prostitution wasn't decent, I'd respect her more if she worked in a factory.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 17-2-2008 13:21 ]

What is it about the desire to accumulate wealth as quickly as possible that you find so distasteful? This characteristic defines what percentage of the world's population? Would you have more respect for the WGs if they were to ask for less money?

The utter inability or pig-headed unwillingness of people to, at least, question their moral preconceptions never fails to depress me. A guy wearing red-tinted glasses ain't gonna see anything green even if he's standing in the middle of the fucking Amazon rain forest.

My general opinions on a working girl compared to other professions;

She is making an honest living; simply trading herself for cash;

regardless of whether you are an employer or employee, you are doing the same;
As an employer, you are using $$$ to buy the services of an employee; and the
employee is simply selling the services of oneself in return for salary ($$$)
The girls don't trick, rob or use deceitful means to obtain the $$$.

As to whether this occupation is a desirable one or not, it depends on many factors and circunstances;
Personally, I am of the belief that most would not choose this path is given an option, (though I could be wrong).
And by choosing this profession, it doesn't make them less human than everyone.
Treat them as you would treat others.

Except for a few bad apples; and this happens to every profession; generally
all follow the rules of the game;

Personally I meet some who outward are cold, but deep inside them, they are
just as compassionate as us;

And if they anyone thinks that the girls are "dirty", I suggest you take a look at yourselves
in the mirror ......................................

There are some jobs that are not desirable; and yet there are others willing to take the job;
be thankful to them; without them, you may not be able to enjoy the quality of life that you have know

Let's put away our personal prejudice and make this world a better place for everyone

Ok, I think we can finally nail this down.

Mars, you don't know me from Adam - how can you possibly interpret what I mean. You can't. My wife, family, close friends possibly can interpret what I mean [sometimes] because they know me very well. It's like studying a famous writer, say Shakespeare. Through study you can learn to interpret what he means, although, even then, there might be disagreements between different scholars. But if you don't study this writer, his words can only mean what they actually say. In business, we learn to write exactly what we mean, nothing more, nothing less. In business, we don't spend our lives trying to tease out what was really meant - otherwise no business would ever get done. I'm guessing you're not in business.

If you spend your life trying to tease out what people really mean - all I can say is that you're not very good at it. Because, in my case, you have ALWAYS GOT IT WRONG. And, if you don't believe me, there's nothing I can do about that.

Leave my words alone and just accept them at face vaule. Just who the hell are you to try to interpret what I mean? I'm guessing you come from a middle-class Bostonian family, while I come from a working class family in the north of England. We may have a common language and a similar interest in WGs, but we're world's apart bro. There is simply no way that you could possibly interpret my words.

I don't really understand the economic indignation at the amount of money these girls make.

Other than to express a certain charming nostalgia for a simpler world, praise of the Victorian work ethic usually comes from those who are in a much better economic situation than the poor wretches they profess to admire; or from those who know the path to quicker, easier money is forever barred to them.

It's market forces, supply and demand, Economics 101 that determine what these girls make. Frankly, I'm amazed that one can have sex with a beautiful young girl for so little. How many hours do most of us have to work to earn the HK$ 800 necessary to step up to the plate? - somewhere between 2-4 I would imagine, for some probably less. Doesn't it strike you as odd that we can have 45 mins of sex with a beautiful stranger by doing whatever it is we do for 90 mins to 3 hrs!

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 17-2-2008 22:35 ]

OK, let's try this interpretation thing and try to tease out what Marsupial really means.

What I hear from this and other posts [e.g. coalminers] is that Mars' despises poor people. He thinks they're totally stupid for putting up
with their miserable, useless, pathetic lives instead of getting off their lazy arses and doing something about it. Why aren't they all like
the heroic WG who's gonna make a lot of money being a WG and then start her own business and get filthy rich. Now that's the kind
of gal that Mars admires. Afetr all, doen't everyone want to be middle class or better? What kond of an idiot wants to remain poor?

Well guess what bro, I couldn't give a shit about your go-getting WG. And there's nothing to be ashamed of in being poor and their
lives are not pathetic and useless as you seem to think. You're an elitist snob who looks down on poor people as not being as worthy
as the rich.

How's my interpretation bro? Personally I think I nailed it.

I have no choice but to interpret what you mean - not being able to see directly into your brain.

And to say that I have always misunderstood you is a bit much don't you think? That's a rather convenient way to deal with criticism, assign everything to the obtuseness of your critics.

Jake really now, that bracing story of the Wellcome check-out girl, for example, was so obviously a sly rebuke of WGs that if you can't see that, I really do wonder at just what kind of business letter it is that you write.

But I have no doubt that you write perfectly good business letters, just as I don't doubt that you know quite well what you are implying in these posts.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 17-2-2008 15:16 ]

I think there's something implied these two statements that weren't directly stated. If I had a daughter, I feel one of my sole duties would be to provide for her enough so that she wouldn't have to be a prostitute. Not that I have anything against it since I use their services occasionally, I just don't think it's good for her emotionally and perhaps tying her to potential physical harm. Now, if I was an asshole dad that molested my daughter or even pimped her out when she was young (I've known girls who've had their dad's molest and pimp them out to uncles before... sad but true), and she had a way to make a life better for herself by being a prostitute, I think that's actually a step up in life for her.


I agree that sometimes there's just seemingly no way out of a bad situation, and it's the luck of the draw. Ironically, I just saw the movie "Ghost" last night, and it really sort of shed some new light on why someone could be desperate enough to do whatever it takes, even if reluctantly. However, everything is relative and must be accepted for what it is. My ex-girlfriend from the Taishan province told me about her childhood, and I can't even fathom those kinds of living conditions for myself. She roamed around her village leading a band of kids to find whatever crops that may have been left over, started a ground oven, cooked it and ate together to quiet their hunger. Her parent's were already of the better class since her mom was a school teacher, but they were all still poor. She got lucky because her parents were able to immigrate to the US after many many years, and now she's engaged to a wealthy and nice guy in HK. Being a really caring daughter who puts her parents first for EVERYTHING (which is why we broke up), and fairly daring in a heroic sort of way, I can see her having become a WG in HK if her family had no other means to provide for themselves (esp since her mom developed cancer last year).
I must accept that a WG in a 1 room flat, tethered to the room with limited light coming into the windows, may actually be in a better situation than where they came from. I know my mom used to share a similar dimensional apartment with 4 siblings and her parents.

But I also believe this isn't the only case that can drive a girl to become a WG. Some do seem pretty materialistic.


Right on, bro!

There seems to be an underlying issue of just whether or not WGs are deserving of respect. And I think we all share the idea of respecting them as individuals.

[ Last edited by  erix at 17-2-2008 15:19 ]

Man you couldn't be further from the truth.

I despise poor people?!  I own precious little in this world and live a very frugal life - this laptop and a nice watch are my only real possessions. I have no apt, no car, no health insurance, no retirement fund, and no social security. I live on 20K HK/mth and that must cover everything.  My parents were dirt poor. I grew up in a family that never owned a car or even a telephone, let alone a home, and it was a damn good mth if we could manage to pay the rent. And that's only the surface of things. Do you know how poor that was in 60's America? My father died at a younger age than I am now, ground down by the shame and worry of not being able to provide for his family. My only brother drank himself to death at an early age. No, I don't despise the poor, I despise poverty because I know what it's like to be poor. It's only people who have never experienced how devastating real poverty is who try to romanticize the whole wretched thing.

So when I see a guy who enjoys priviledges denied to the less fortunate say he would rather the poor stay poor, slaving away at some soul-numbing, get-nowhere job; because he thinks that's more honorable than attempting to get ahead doing something that upsets his delicate moral sensibilities - I have to take issue with that. Especially when the guy pointing fingers is also the one who patronizes the very girls he doesn't respect. And I'm the snob?!

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 17-2-2008 23:10 ]

It seems implied from some the posts that we would rather see the WG as a person trying to rise from adversity or perhaps escaping an even more desperate situation by doing whatever it takes to get out. It would also seem that we prefer to think of them as morally good girls trapped into this profession by various forces.

I personally prefer my viewpoint to be one of "she enjoys sex, doesn't get enough from bf/hubby, wants to make extra cash to support a fancier life style". That way I don't have to ever feel bad that the above  situations actually exist. It depresses me and I know of no way to fix it. If I ran into a WG that I can vouch 100% did suffer from the above circumstances, I would try everything in my power to get her out, and if I can't, I'd be severely depressed that life can possibly be that way for someone who just happened to not be lucky enough to be born into my situation.

[ Last edited by  erix at 17-2-2008 15:20 ]

There are exceptions too;

young students who choose to be a part time young mistress who want a better lifestyle and not because of the need for survival ................................

one type of rice but eaten by all types of people ...................

Wow, they dont even have to buy a damn uniform. Niiiice.

You have my full admiration for stating such a thing. While I don't want to share my story here, let's just say we started at the bottom and climbeb up the ladder step by step. Today, we all enjoy a very enviable life, one we could only dream of, and our own children have a much easier start in life. Even too easy if you ask me What some people in our social network say (and do) makes me wish they would lose everything cause they just don't deserve it.

No one is trying to romaticise it. I'm just saying that being poor is not the worst thing in the world and other things are more
important than your economic condition. I very much doubt that any of these WGs were at risk of starving to death or were
living on the streets.

No matter how poor people are - everyone will set their own limits on what they will do and what they will not do, in order to
escape their poverty. Some will resort to prostitution, others won't. Some will sell their soul to the devil to get what they want
in life. Others won't. Which ones you choose to admire is up to you and tells us all something of your own character.

can't agree any more...

but My friends in real life have some problems with WGs..

so i wish to let they know when they visit this forum......