First, I'm getting into this late, but let me say that this is a really interesting discussion one that I'd love to have over some beers.  In fact it's one of the most thoughtful and interesting discussions I've seen on this forum.  

I'm not going to make moral judgments or pretend that I don't have any preconceptions about WGs, but just in terms of this debate and the point that Jake made, I've got to say that Mars said (better) what I was thinking and is correct in his response to Jake.

Jake, your 3rd paragraph ("If the answer is equal, then you must judge everyone in the world to be equally deserving, which would be ridiculous.  Martin Luther King is more obviously more deserving of respect than the white, racial bigots he opposed.") is a huge leap and leads to an illogical conclusion.  Stating that WGs and nurses (professions, not individuals) are equally deserving of our respect is in no way the same as saying that all individual people are deserving of respect, with your example being MLK (a highly deserving individual) compared to racist, bigots (a reprehensible group).

No problem bro. If you respect the profession of WG as much as, say, the profession of nursing, that's your choice.
But, I must say, you appear to have a warped sense on values. Would you be more proud if your daughter became
a WG or a nurse? And, if you give the predictable answer that you'd be proud of your daughter whatever she did,
let me re-phrase it.

No doubt you'd be happy and proud to tell your friends that your daughter is a nurse. But would you be equally happy
and proud to tell all your friends that your daughter is a WG? Or would you, as I think you would,  just keep it as a dirty
little family secret?

I'll say again - I like WGs. But they're not exactly role-models for our children - now are they?

I can see it now - darling daughter, you're 18 and beautiful. Why waste your time going to university to study? Be a WG
and make a lot of money - and it's a noble, caring profession - equally deserving of our respect as the foolish women who
study for years to be a nurse for low pay just so that they can take care of people who are sick.

Yeah, right.

man, you spoke what I wished to speak!

Exactly! U reli know how the game works! Anyway, I will try my very best to finish off the translation. Yet I am super busy nowadays....

No, of course I wouldn't be equally happy if my daughter became a working girl instead of a nurse (or a teacher, or an office worker, or a checkout girl at the supermarket).  Frankly, that would be terrible.  It absolutely would not be a "career" I would choose for her.  It would mean that she was in a situation where she saw no other way out.  I guess that's what I'm saying...to me prostitution isn't a line of work most (not all, of course) choose for the fun of it...it's something they choose out of necessity.

So that's why I think a particular WG, as an individual, is deserving of respect.  I wouldn't use such a broad brush in painting the group as immoral -- it would depend on the individual and her particular circumstances.  You can't know her situation.  She might be a perfectly moral (i.e. upright, honest, straightforward, open, honorable) person who sees this as a means to an end.  People are more complex than what they do for a living (assuming they're not hurting people).  Saying that WGs are immoral is as inaccurate as saying that lawyers (or plumbers, or teachers, or doctors ) are moral.  There are good and bad individuals in each group.  

And on another topic, you suggest that WGs are doing it to make a lot of money fast.  I would suggest the contrary.  I can't believe it would be easy to have sex with 10+ guys a day, having to pretend that you like being with fat, sweaty guys (not speaking about myself, of course ), being basically tethered to your room by the 007, etc.  I would imagine it would be damn awful.

"And on another topic, you suggest that WGs are doing it to make a lot of money fast."

I mis-typed that.  I meant to say that you also suggest that prostitution is an EASY way to make a lot of money.  I would not think it's easy at all.

You are confusing two different types of attitude here: pride and respect. Pride is the emotion we feel when we appreciate someone's accomplishments or behavior; respect is a judgment on the worth and rights of another human being. You may not be proud of someone, but unless they are doing/have done something that you consider wrong or harmful, they deserve to be treated with respect.

And let's not lose sight of the subject of this thread. You don't really think that someone would or would not make a good wife depending on whether or not you or I feel proud of them, do you? You may not approve of the path these girls have chosen in life, that's your right; but don't make the mistake of thinking you can draw all sorts of conclusions about the character of these girls simply because you disapprove of their job choice.

I understand quite well that you wouldn't want your daughter to become a WG, but if she did, you would want others to treat her with respect, and you would hope that someday she would meet an open-minded guy with whom she could build a good life.

MLK, being a minister, would probably speak of redemption and hope that the girls would make better lives for themselves, but he certainly wouldn't write them all of as lost causes and deny them respect or judge them incapable of becoming good wives and mothers.

But since I don't share the common moral/religious prejudice against prostitution, I don't understand this rush to judgment. The idea that a WG could never make a good wife just doesn't make sense to me. It's not a matter of being holier than thou, it's a question of logic. But it's true that most people don't respect prostitution, and the WGs have to deal with this. This kind of attitude poisons and distorts personalities. If WGs were treated with respect, all of these negative character traits that guys ascribe to WGs would vanish and no one would even think to ask whether a WG could make a good wife. Japan has a much less quilt-ridden approach to prostitution and I doubt that the question we are discussing here would even come up in a Japanese forum.

I remember when I first went to study in Taiwan 30 yrs ago. All the Taiwanese guys were saying that they would never marry a girl who wasn't a virgin. They had this idea in their heads that any girl who had had sex with another guy before marriage wasn't clean and wouldn't make a good wife. They were dead certain that having premarital sex was an infallible indicator of a girl's bad character. Seems kinda silly and old-fashioned now, but this is the same kind of reasoning that animates the present discussion: moral preconceptions leading to blanket assumptions about character.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 16-2-2008 14:48 ]

I hope you read the whole thread ?! Damn judgemental people ...

BUT, I will say it clearly once again and I don't give a shit about what you think my character is.

If there is NO other way to get me out of hell, I will do whatever need to be done. Does it mean doing petty crime and being a pimp ? No. Does it mean bending the law, dealing with shaddy people to get me out and have a chance to live a DECENT human life like any one is entitled to (not just lucky people born in nice countries). Yes.

If you, or any other, cannot understand that, nothing I can do for you. I have come across few people I really cannot stand, but all of them where hyprocrit moral/religious bigots.

[ Last edited by  cherry_picker at 16-2-2008 00:30 ]

In a world where everyone has an equal opportunity to study and pick the life they want, you would at least have the chance to make a point. But even then, your point would really be that because of the way people *perceive* prostitution, you would not be a proud father.

Open question to all:

Why do you think prostitution has such a stigma attached to it since it is apparently one of the oldest profession? What is so wrong about a women offering her body for money compared to say, offering her brain/muscles for money?

Corollary question:

Would a lawyer make a good husband? :p After all, everyone know they are sharks living on the misery of others, aren't they?

Do you remember this thread?:

A little thought game

http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/v ... a=page%3D7#pid25447

Hmm... very convincing....

i would finish off my translation ASAP and let bros know an insider's voice....

Mannequins fit that example. What about them ? They are also selling their bodies, just in a different way (or not so different if we think about what they sometimes do to get to the top ...).

I think we are on the same page when it comes to WG skepticism.  I mean, I understand that you are paying to get "loved" but we are just a lot more realistic.  I'm just not down with that game.

There sure are a lot of Whore defenders out there.  Perhaps we need to create a misogyny icon but geared towards WG's and similar.  I would love to have a misogyny badge next to my name much more than a simple moon or star.

Next to that icon for misogyny, I think an icon depicting a slime trail would also be appropriate as a symbol of the path you are leaving behind you as you make your way through life.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 16-2-2008 23:22 ]

Aww... C'mon now, thems fightin' words.  JK LOL!

It's OK to fall in love with WGs but not OK to despise them?  

I thought you Bostonians were much more open than that!

I completely agree. But in your post that I replied to, you specifically said respect of the profession, not the individual. Or, at leats, that's what I understood.

The professions of WG and modelling? On the scale of respect - yeah, I'd say about the same. Seriously - no smiley.

[ Last edited by  Jake at 16-2-2008 22:14 ]

Actually, that's not the subject of the thread. The subject is falling in love with a WG. And my very first comment was ...


If you've already fallen in love - it's game over. The question is, should you pursue a WG into a relationship that may end with you falling in love - resulting in
marriage and then trying to make that marriage work. And all the married guys here know how difficult that is - with any woman. I consider the risks of failure
too high and recommended backing off. Falling in love and getting married might well be the most important events of your whole life. Why not increase the
odds of having a favourable outcome by making some intelligent choices?

From that, Mars leapfrogs to wild accusations of what I 'really' mean.

You're playing word games. You advise not falling in love with a WG claiming that because of the flaws that a WG must have given her job choice, she could never make a good wife. Everything that I have written in this thread has addressed that position. You wriggle to the right, then dodge to the left, deny you said this, then claim you really meant that; but in the end nothing has changed.

As far as wild accusations are concerned, how about giving examples that I haven't already answered. Your previous post accusing me of distorting your words involved you denying saying what you clearly said. Pleading rhetorical innocence and claiming to be a straight-talking guy isn't much of a defense. In a shared language words have specific meanings whatever the after-the-fact protestations.

That's got to be the biggest joke I've ever heard on 141. Mars - you're the one who plays word games. I say something you say I said something else.
When I said I didn't say what you said I said you just say - ah, but that's what you meant. There's little point in me going back over it all again because
you'll just believe what you want to believe, you'll just say I said things that I never did. As you've just done yet again in Post # 126 and 139.

It's impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who, who if they don't agree with what you say, simply interpret it to mean something
else and then comment on that interpretation as if that's what I actually said. We just go round in circles. Why can't you simply accept the words that
people use?

2nd biggest joke:


You really do live in your own parallel universe don't you Mars - this is completely backwards.

All I ever say is accept my words for what they say. Nothing I've denied I said has never beeen shown to be otherwise by you. I have never said ... I
really meant that ... other than what the words actually say. You're the one who continues to claim - even now - that I actually mean something different
to what my words say. How can I debate with someone who won't listen to my words but will only interperet them to mean something different and then
talk about that. I give up; it's pointless