Don't be an idiot. The question of the relationship between China and Tibet is very complex, and I admitted that I don't know the history. Therefore, as I said, I'm not capable of commenting intelligently on the problem; and if you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I have, in fact, taken no position on the issue. My point is that, for various reasons, Chinese people are incapable of looking at the Tibetan question objectively. You are an obvious example of this. I commented on your post #51 because your reasoning is dumb - the kind of emotional raving one reads in hysterical newspaper editorials. If you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to do much better than that.

I myself mentioned the slaughter of American Indians as an open admission that the US is in no position to offer up smug advice on dealing with native peoples. It's called self-irony. You act as if I suggested genocide as a way to deal with the Tibetans. Learn to read.

Congratulations bro - you've seen the future.   It happened to the Soviet Union and it'll happen to China.

All it needs is a catalyst - it could be Tibet or it could be Taiwan - or another region of China. And the central government
understands - as you do, that once one region breaks away, others will follow and China will disintegrate. But it can't be
stopped.

wackojacko #59 - Saw your post after I wrote mine - you got it right

[ Last edited by  Jake at 9-7-2008 12:00 ]

this isn't an idea anymore...
it has already become a reality..

China is not some backward country that has unexpectedly appeared out of nowhere to threaten western domination of the world. China has always been a great power. Those recent 100 odd years of relative weakness were an anomaly. As recently as the early Ching dynasty, up until the mid-19th century, China accounted for 1/3 of total world economic activity. The Brits were forced to sell opium to the Chinese in exchange for tea, ceramics and silks because the Europeans didn't have anything the Chinese wanted. During much of its long history, China was the most advanced civilization on the planet. That civilization is still here and is now reclaiming its rightful place in the world. Get over it.

It is very unlikely that China is going to disintegrate. China has been in it's present form for more than a thousand years. The comparison to the Soviet Union - a recently formed Empire of diverse peoples having nothing in common - is not valid. Over 92% of the Chinese are Han sharing a common culture and language. Even if Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang were to break away, China would lose nothing but mostly uninhabited, undeveloped territory. The total population of Tibet is the same as HK - about 6 million people. Inner Mongolia has 23 million people only 20% of whom are actually Mongolian. Xinjiang has 20 million people, 40% of whom are Han.

The Taiwanese are Han Chinese. They may have legitimate reasons to desire independence, but the Mainland is justified in claiming sovereignty over Taiwan.

Your sarcasm Post #53 has shown your position in pushing for tibet independent, for your information I am looking at tibetan issue very objectively as I have no interest whatsoever at all in that or to chinese people. There are lot of thing that I dont agree with what China has done about human right or towards Tibetan people but it doesnt mean I have to support the Tibetan Independent just because of China bad behaviour. My stance is I dont agree any part of country to be separated. For ex I dont agree if Tasmania is to be separated from Australia just because it is habitated by Aboriginal.

You sounded angry bro, it's not the typical Marsupial I know.... If you're getting fed up with this than the wise marsupial seem has a little bit higher testoterone nowdays or has gotten old and lost his touch?

Why? China can't claim a country just because the people who live there happen to be of the Chinese race.
As far as I know, Taiwan was never part of China. If the Chinese people who moved there and developed
the country don't want to be ruled by the PRC, their choice should be respected and they should be left
alone.

If that happen, I would have to buy a new globe.......damn... I'm saving for 141 gal you know.

If I have a problem, it's with people who don't know how to read. Show me where in this thread I have "pushed" for Tibetan independence. I've already twice stated very clearly that I don't know enough about it to have any opinion whatsoever. Isn't that clear enough for you? My sarcasm was directed at your silly argument. You obviously have strong emotions on the subject of Tibetan independence. That's fine. But if you want to convince anyone that your position is correct, you will have to offer up logical reasons why Tibet has no valid claim to be an independent state. To argue that independence may have some hypothetical negative impact on China is not a legal justification for Chinese control.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 11-7-2008 14:09 ]

As I understand it, Taiwan became an official province of China in 1887, but that status was rescinded eight years later when China was forced to cede the island to Japan in the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki. Taiwan then became a colony of Japan and remained so until the war's end in 1945.  Prior to 1887 China was indirectly involved in the governing of Taiwan.

The San Francisco Treaty in 1951, which officially ended WW2, never explicitly dealt with Taiwan because, at the time, the West recognized the KMT, which had taken refuge on Taiwan, as the legitimate rulers of China. If the US had been buddies with the CCP, Taiwan would have been returned to the Mainland. But then in 1979 Jimmy Carter said the CCP was, in fact, the legitimate government of China. So then what of Taiwan?

It's an immensely complicated issue and both sides can put forth convincing arguments. I have many friends on the island and sympathize with their desire for independence. Tho, interestingly, many Taiwanese have told me that they have no objection to unification, per se, it's just that they don't like the Commies.

You must be kidding! what legal justification do you need? just because Tibet aint Han then they're suppose to be independent, that's NOT legal justification either and definetely a joke.

Tell me what other reason for Government of China to keep Tibet around and oppose Taiwan Independance, if not for STABILITY?

Clearly you can only talk without any consideration of other people, why cant you stand in someone else shoes? ... Imagine yourself as the Government of China...what will you do? let Tibet become Independent just because someone challenge the legal justification for it?

[ Last edited by  goodjob at 9-7-2008 16:53 ]

So do you want them to be Independent or part of China? you definetely like to split out fact only.

[ Last edited by  goodjob at 9-7-2008 16:55 ]

Since I'm not advocating anything, I have no need to justify anything. I'm just keeping an open mind until I know more. Is that OK with you bro? And I fully understand why the CCP takes the position it does. There's no mystery there. But since I'm an American, arguing that something is right because it's in the interests of the Chinese government means nothing to me. I'm free to consider issues like fairness and legality. Sorry if that upsets you bro, but there it is. And since I'm not Chinese, I don't have to worry about anyone calling me a traitor. You ask me to see the issue from the standpoint of the Chinese government, a Tibetan would ask me to look at things from the point of view of the Tibetan people. What's a white boy to do?

In any case, this appeal to the concern of the ruling power to maintain stability can lead to all sorts of problems. The English probably saw the American revolution as a threat to stability. The loss of Vietnam and Algeria was, in fact, very destabilizing to the French government. The plea for stability is sometimes nothing but a ploy to perpetuate an unjust situation. The world is in constant flux and sometimes a little instability can have positive results.

“facts all come with points of view, facts won’t do what you want them to.” - Talking Heads

Yah, it's true. I'm the kind of guy who likes to base his opinions on facts. The world is a complex place, and things are usually only black and white when you choose to ignore inconvenient facts. Tho I can easily understand that facts are not important to someone who has already made up his mind based on emotion and patriotism.

As for Taiwan, the situation is complicated for me by the fact that I lived there for many years and still have friends on the island, so I can see both sides of the issue. Hopefully, the Taiwanese and Chinese governments will someday agree on unification under terms they both can live with. Since you ask me to look at things from the standpoint of the Chinese government, why don't you try to understand the legitimate concerns of the Taiwanese people?

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 11-7-2008 14:15 ]

This is a great sex forum.  Have we missed the point here?

Thanks for the info bro. So a sparcely-populated Taiwan was an official province of China from 1887 to 1895. And
that's supposed to justify China's claim to the modern, democratic Taiwan, which has a population of 23 million?
Just doesn't make any sense to me. But then, I'm not a politician.

But I'm surprised that you can say ...  "the Mainland is justified in claiming sovereignty over Taiwan".

Sorry bro but to anyone from a democratic country, that kind of reasoning makes absolutely no sense at all. No government,
in and of itself, is worth a shit. For us, governments exist for ONLY ONE REASON and that is to serve the people. So, when
we consider an issue, we don't even consider what's good for the government - we put ourselves in the shoes of the people
- what's good for the people is the only consideration and fuck the government.

And, in this case, we're talking about the people of Tibet. Tibet is a country currently occupied by China. If the people
of Tibet want to be independant, their wishes should be respected. And I don't give a fuck what the Government of
China wants - or any other government for that matter.

Tibet is NOT a country.  It NEVER was.

Besides, not even the Dali Lama wants independence from China.

That's just plain nonsense and ignores 2,000 years of history. Read this:

http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/occu.html

and this:

http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/index.html

Please feel free to direct me somewhere that supports your statements.

[ Last edited by  Jake at 10-7-2008 14:52 ]

The 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki ended the First Sino-Japanese War of 1894–1895. In this treaty, China was forced to cede the Liaodong peninsula, part of Liaoning province, the islands of Taiwan and the Pescadores to Japan. China was also forced to pay Japan a huge war indemnity, and sign a commercial treaty similar to ones previously signed by China with various western powers in the aftermath of the Opium Wars. This commercial treaty forced the opening of various ports and rivers to Japanese trade.

The First Sino-Japanese War was a trumped up conflict started by the Japanese military for the express purpose of stealing Chinese territory. The Japanese then went on to annex Manchuria using the same strategy of provoking a conflict and then demanding territory and money as compensation. Full-out invasion followed. In many ways the Japanese are responsible for much post-war Asian turmoil. Certainly North Korea owes it's existence to the brutal Japanese colonization of the Korean peninsular.

At the end of the war, the only reason that Taiwan was not returned to China along with all the other plundered territories, is that the US didn't like the "Commies", and decided to do Chiang Kai-chek a favor and ignore Taiwan's status in the 1951 San Francisco Treaty that ended WW2. The US then saved Chiang's ass by militarily preventing the CCP from taking Taiwan and ending the civil war.

Prior to 1887, the Ching court was involved in the governing of Taiwan, but only in the indirect way customary at the time of dealing with sparsely populated vassal territories. Taiwan was not developed or important enough to merit official representation in the Ching governing apparatus. But that changed in 1887 when Taiwan became a  Chinese province. Tho only for 8 years, it was still a legal possession of China that was unjustly taken by Japan under force of arms. The fact that Japan forced China to sign a treaty legally ceding Taiwan was recognition, by the Japanese at least, that Taiwan was Chinese territory.

Tho I fully sympathize with the Taiwanese, and don't want to see the only real democracy the Chinese people have ever produced extinguished by a corrupt communist dictatorship, it is impossible to ignore the fact that the internationally recognized government of China does have a legitimate legal claim to Taiwan. But that's not the only issue here, because time and the facts on the ground have produced in Taiwan a society that has an equally legitimate right to self-rule. Tho I recognize China's claim, my heart is with my Taiwanese friends.

Anyway most Chinese don't give a shit about the CCP - to them Taiwan must be reunited with the Mainland as the final step in the undoing of past injustices and humiliations. There are many Taiwanese who share this view, it's just that they understandably don't want anything to do with the CCP. The situation is further complicated by the fact that the Taiwanese population is ideologically divided between the 80% who can trace their ancestry back to the original settlers from Fujian province, and the 20% who came over with the KMT in 1949 when Chiang retreated from the Mainland. The former speak the dialects of Fujian province while the later are Mandarin speakers. The KMT people never really gave up on the dream of returning to govern China. The Fujian guys, the supporters of the recently ousted Chen Shui-bian, are the ones agitating for independence. These are the guys who are buddy buddy with Tokyo and even look back with nostalgia to the days when Japan ruled Taiwan! It's a complicated mess.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 19-7-2008 00:47 ]

It's not that the Dalai Lama doesn't want independence, he's just being realistic and recognizes that independence is never going to happen. He's trying to make the best of a bad situation.

The government wants stability in the country and I respect that! whereas what you're referring to about the government is entirely different issue. I agree that government is there to serve people and I dont care what is good for the government. Tibet here is entirely different issue with the things we usually get piss of by the government do in our life. I can't get your argument because:

1. Actually there was never a china at the first place, there were only many states or area occupied by warlords of what we call china now. The first person who combine all states into one heaven was Qin Shi Huang.... so if you said that Tibet is a country which does not deserve to be rule under one country then you're saying that each and every province of china shall split out from china. From my understanding is that you're actually suggesting to just erase China from the world map.

2. If you're so care about Tibetian people, do you ever think what will happen after tibet split out from china?.... as per Bro Mars said "Tibet is undevelop territory with the total population of Tibet is the same as HK - about 6 million people" Do you think tibet will survive as country? Without having agriculture and natural resources or many educated people.... what chance do you think tibet will have as a country?.... Well another poor country with lots of problem and need lots of help.