Third one is money ...

That's the thing with respect: it goes *both* way. It's ok muslims don't drink beer but what does it do to them if you drink some? And don't get me wrong, that behavior/hyprocrisy is apparent for many others, not only muslims/arab men/whatever. Anyway, don't want to start on this topic. Personally, I am sick and tired of it. It is enough to deal with such nonsense here at home.


I strongly disagree with this statement, but judging from what I have seen here, that is not the only thing that sets us apart. Let us leave it at that, cause it is a deaf dialog.

perhaps it is time that you learn to understand the cultures of different people;
what you "think" is right for you may not be right for others

the reason why I did not drink beer on that particular evening was simply meaning that I respect the rest sitting on the same table; I could easy ignore them and buy myself a beer but I choose not to; meaning learning to respect others and not imposing my beliefs;

as for censorship in forums, show me a forum without moderators

There was already moderation here in this forum without moderators ...............................

Yeah daddy, I will learn!

Seriously, perharps it is time you stop patronizing people you know nothing about. You are really a lost cause ... beyond redemption.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/0 ... gin&oref=slogin

The New York Times is reporting that Muslim groups are attempting to censor Wikipedia because of images of Muhammad contained in the article about him. 'A Frequently Asked Questions page explains the site's polite but firm refusal to remove the images: "Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with the goal of representing all topics from a neutral point of view, Wikipedia is not censored for the benefit of any particular group." The notes left on [online petitions against the page] come from all over the world. "It's totally unacceptable to print the Prophet's picture," Saadia Bukhari from Pakistan wrote in a message. "It shows insensitivity towards Muslim feelings and should be removed immediately.


That is the beer example magnified ...

to quote part of your post

"It shows insensitivity towards Muslim feelings ................."

Much as I don't agree with some things in Thailand, I got to respect the local cultures;

The local idiots in Thailand banned access to youtube after some inappropriate videos were posted and threaten to sue Google; Google refused to remove the videos but in the end, the offensive videos were removed. Though I am not a Thai, personally I felt the videos made a mockery of the Thai people and should be removed.

We are here to talk about sex .......................................................

So talk about sex and stop arguing with the bro. Or is it an unwritten forum rule that you always have to have the last word?

see post #15

you can be sure of one thing though ...................................................

So, backtracking to the subject at hand, HK seems like a glitzy and glamorous city that I'd like to spend parts of my year in (I hate summers here). However, it'd seem if I wanted to make the same money that I do in the US, I'd have to change profession into some kind of capital investment career.
I totally agree with everyone who said HK is super expensive to live. $450million HKD for a small condo seems only reasonable to those in the US living in SF, NY or LA. If I wanted to keep my standard of living that I have in LA (upper mid class I guess) I'd have to make alot more money in HK, probably would have nothing left over for mongering.

How's the software biz in HK? I'd like to start an outsourcing software contracting company to China and use HK as my home base.

Outsourcing is a big illusion ... You lose more money watching/fixing the work done by monkeys than hiring a few quality developpers. Don't take my post as racist, talent has nothing to do with race. If you do go that route, do yourself a favor and hire *great* architects with enormous people skills and if possible, that speak cantonese/mandarin. By architect, I mean someone who can see the 10,000 feet picture, but also who can dig deep in the code and knows the in and out of your platform of choice.

HK has good market for banking/trading applications. Security consultants are also quite popular ;) Java seems very dominant, but I saw a couple of .NET shops and the odd Open Source ones.

India is the present place for all back offices ops for multinat;

Actually, once you own your own house or apartment and have paid off the mortgage, Hong Kong is not that expensive.

erix;

...ditto to sulasno's post...even tho there are more local/cn cos doing software contracting for clients both multinats and cn cos, both accept and realise that the indians are the front-runners in this area with the lowest cost/highest capability and are happy to work with them...so makes your wish quite hard...however, if you move to sz or zhuhai...may be a more viable option...

For both China and India, what the IT workers are expected to do is to fill the blanks of an existing architecture, not build anything from scratch. The education system is geared toward producing such type of programmers and unless you find a real gem, you cannot ask more than that without going into deep trouble. India average level of competency is much higher, but base salaries are also higher.

For sure, going closer to the production shop is going to help immensely (and cost of living will be cheaper too). I would go as far as saying that having a supervisor on site permanently is mandatory.

Swan, Cherry_picker,

C'mon guys - leave the work in the office.      

I can see your point. The company I currently work for outsources some work to India (biiiiiig mistake. Despite the stereotype, I found some of the contractors to be amongst the laziest people I've ever dealt with), we're currently switching to a Chinese outsourcing vendor in the mainland. I know that had I to leave my company (in good terms) the trust I've built up with the executives would be a sure advantage in scoring any outsourcing contract, as long as I can provide par work with our current Indian vendors for a lower price. I've also ran startups that outsourced to Latin America hoping to close the time zone gap (the language barrier proved to be faaar too cumbersome as my Spanish is limited and my translators sucked), and Pakistan (my Pakistani PhD only cost me $1,800 USD / month).

I have been software architect at three different companies now. I'm pretty good at laying down my ideas into sizeable chunks while doing most of the intense algorithms myself and I've been a lead and mentor for a while as well, so personable (not personality) skills are there. I'm wondering what other factors I may be overlooking, as I'm sure there are tons.

[ Last edited by  erix at 14-2-2008 05:19 ]

Mentoring skills are good but not enough ... More like daddy skills Been working in South America and if today is like how it was at that time, you don't want to go there. I almost literally kicked a guy out of the office. He was bright alright, but so damn lazy and arrogant, it was bringing down the whole team. We had to police the use of phone, email, im, even NT messenger service! And most of the guys had 0 (as in zero, niet, nada) understanding of OO programming even for GUI. It is hard to concentrate on your work in those conditions ... Having a private office helps a lot.

There are companies/head hunters who specialize in profiling candidates, but shop around ... and I would strongly recommend doing your own interview on top of theirs. It should include a basic programming task involving coding a basic algo and making simple object model. The amount of bullshit they put in their CV is incredible. A company is better because they can more easily replace one candidate if necessary (that saved our ass ...).

All in all, my gut feeling and my experience tell me it is not worth the trouble. Actually, you can see many big companies going back to in-house for dev (e.g. CGI) or even call centers (e.g. Dell). Hiring local college/university students (say, for their stage) is still cheap and the result should be much more previsible. Plus, that person may end up a future employee

Lots of interesting stuff here.


Semantics, semantics. I was referring to the size of the domestic market relative to foreign markets for businesses. There are more opportunities to do business with foreigners than with the domestic market.


I am not interested in the "vast majority" of the sheeple and if you're reading this forum, you're not either. If you can afford to spend what some people in China make in a month on just an hour (or less) of entertainment, then you are not in the "vast majority" of people.


Since you have "no idea" what an undervalued currency is, I take it you are probably not retired. If you were to take the exact same amount of money in terms of US Dollars, these equivalent amounts of money will buy different amounts of equivalent goods/services in different countries. For example, per The Economist magazine, a Big Mac costs $3.41 USD in the USA, $1.99 British Pounds = $4.01 USD in Britain, and $12 HKD = $1.54 USD in HK. A Big Mac is made of rent, labor, energy, veggies, bread, cheese, and meat. You can buy twice as many Big Macs in HK than in the USA or GBR. Therefore, it is a very accurate measure of prices in an economy as a whole. Out of all 1st world cities, Hong Kong is the least expensive. Yes, housing is expensive in Hong Kong, but it is equally or more expensive in other 1st world cities such as New York City or London.

I have a live-in maid in HK. This costs me just $700 USD per month. A live-in maid would cost me $30,000 USD per year in the USA. I have a friend that is embarrassed to have a live-in maid since he brings SP/SW to his flat all the time. I loan him my maid once a week for cleaning and he loans me his chauffered Mercedes in exchange. I take the MTR everywhere so I never have to drive. I don't even carry my own shopping bags. The chauffeur or maid carries my bags for me. If I were to live a lifestyle free from driving, cooking, carrying shopping bags and cleaning in the USA, it would cost much more money. I would not be able to afford it.

Some fellow brothers here suggested that other Asian cities are less expensive. However, other Asian cities (except for Japan, Singapore, and Hong Kong) are 3rd world rat holes. I did not work hard all my life to live in a 3rd world rat hole like Bangkok or HCM city. The traffic in Bangkok was so bad I had to take a chopper to get somewhere in a hurry. Now, that's expensive! HCM city makes Bangkok look good! You have to say a prayer before crossing the street there!


HK has socialized medicine. Your bad knee is not life threatening. That's why you had to wait so long for treatment with the free health care. You can only depend on socialized medicine for emergency medical care, nothing more. If it doesn't require an ambulance, they're not going to treat you. Emergency medical insurance only in the US, costs $600 USD a month. This is free in Hong Kong. Most minor illnesses, I can treat myself. Hong Kong is the city with the highest life expectancy, probably due (in part) to the excellent free health care.


Yes, I am retired in HK.


China is cheap, crappy, unthinking labor. Hong Kong is cheap yet educated and dedicated labor. All my friends are either retired or run international trade corporations in Hong Kong. Their IT and marketing are in HK. However, the manufacturing is in China.

America taxes based on citizenship, so I still pay taxes. However, most EU countries tax based on residency. My European friends have not paid a dime in taxes for years.

Finally, Hong Kong is also very safe. It has the lowest murder rate in the world of any major city.

Hong Kong is heaven for retirees and businessmen. It is hell for workers because YOU will be the cheap, educated and dedicated labor. Maybe if you get transferred to HK with a British or American size salary..., otherwise, stay away from HK if you're a worker bee.

The Economist:
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9448015

Life Expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Murder Rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&int=-1

May I ask why you opened a new account to post this reply ?

thanks for your comments though I am still trying to follow the quotes;

I wouldn't retire in HK
come to Bangkok

One thing's for sure though; my short stint in HK helped me to become more competitive;

considering all the factors, my preference is still Singapore over Hongkong despite the island being a boring place for retirement; that is; if I can afford it