If your seriously looking for a long term thing don't get hung up on beauty and fucking, focus on the quality of the person

Hey Bro, I don't think you are in love with this chick - if you were I don't think you would be talking about finger fucking her etc etc on the internet. The girldoesn't sound like she has gotten over her relationship - these things take time - and sounds like you could be a meal ticket while she's in a difficult situation.I reckon you should have your fun, keep your wallet tight as the other bros are saying, and make some lifestyle changes if you really want to get out of the single guy/punting trap. It's very hard to find a GF when you have a punting mentality. You'll have to make a serious effort.
Good luck,
Raj

Hey Bro, I don't think you are in love with this chick - if you were I don't think you would be talking about finger fucking her etc etc on the internet. The girldoesn't sound like she has gotten over her relationship - these things take time - and sounds like you could be a meal ticket while she's in a difficult situation.I reckon you should have your fun, keep your wallet tight as the other bros are saying, and make some lifestyle changes if you really want to get out of the single guy/punting trap. It's very hard to find a GF when you have a punting mentality. You'll have to make a serious effort.
Good luck,
Raj

I've always been a proponent of falling head over heels anytime I have  chance to do so....but to always have it at the back of my head the actual reality and the basis of such relationship.

You KNOW pretty well her circumstances and background, and thus you cannot/must not allow yourself the luxury of thinking that this is THE one and only love of your (or rather - her) life.  Take it for whatever it is, enjoy it to the hilt with all the bells and jingles of supposedly "true Love" - but again, and I stress this, know at the back of your head what this is all about.

Don't commit yourself to anything more than what you normally spend anyway (as per your thoughts I quoted), don't fall for any of her ploys/pleading and most importantly - don't be a sap and willingly let go of your own good senses.

You should be OK if you realize all this and follow through.

Good luck!

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 24-3-2011 18:03 ]

Again, thanks for the replies. Who said this forum is only good for reports?

Well, for 2 nights in a row, she stayed at my place, and we had really wild passionate GFE sexual blast. I gave her HKD 3K to make up for her lost income. She did not ask me for it. For the 2 nights, we were like real couples. Went for dinners at restaurant, brought her shopping at TST, I offered to pay for her shoppings, but she did not end up buying anything, insisting that she did not like the clothes that she tried on.

She's now back at PRC for a couple of weeks. For the past few days, we've been exchanging love text messages, coupled with IDD calls.

I now find myself unable to punt. I actually thought about her and would feel as if i'm cheating on her if I punt.

Am I in love? Maybe, but I don't think so. Everytime I think about the long term, i will tell myself our differences in background would mean that this relationship will not last. But yet, she's on my mind 80% of the time.

Oh well. I'm gonna enjoy it while this last, while watching my wallet. It will be hard, but i don't think she's purely out for my money. She needs money yeah, but i happen to think she also likes my companionship and the love i'm showering her.

On one hand, i don't want to hurt her. She's in her mid-thirties now and youth is slipping away from her. I don't want to waste her time but yet I can't seem to detach myself from her. On another, I also don't want to be hurt emotionally. She's got no shortage of suitors (so she said). If she eventually meets some rich guy, I would be happy for her too, but I'll probably be heartbroken....

I still don't think it's possible and worthwhile for you to develop this.  Its arleady giving u so much uncertainty.

Thanks for updating us.


My guess is you're in denial.  You're already in love with her but trying to convince yourself that it isn't so (yet).  Otherwise, you won't have this silly guilt feeling when you even just think of punting.

Anyway, have you entertained the thoughts of living with her as your wife or live-in partner?  How does it sums up?  Do you think you can bring her to meet your family?  If you think you're ready for a serious relationship, then let the relationship continue and see where it leads you.

Otherwise, if you don't see her to be part of your future, then the longer you prolong your affair, the more heartbroken both of you will be later (plus more wallet-broken for you - is there such a word?).

Anyway, good luck for whatever decision you make.

I've had a few mates who liked to date WG; seemingly they liked that things were up front about the relationship. Some wanted money up front, some refused to accept anything, even expensive gifts. The latter were the more dangerous because they always came back for something larger.

This woman asked for a 20k loan up front, what does that say to you? How likely would YOU be to ask someone you barely know for 20k? I hate to be so blunt but you asked: this is a red flag that would send most men running and she would probably know it. The fact that she would ask suggests either she is a gold digger or is in a very bad spot.

In either case, she is probably not in a place in her life where she can be in a serious relationship. Get involved at your own peril; seems like you are moving forward but I would at least keep your eyes wide open to the following:

1) You should not worry about hurting her, you are the one far more likely to get hurt here. Again, to be blunt, she almost certainly has far more relationship experience than you and, mixed with your feelings for her (whether it's love or not is immaterial, there are clearly feelings), you are at a serious disadvantage here. Worry about yourself only, that's what she is doing.

2) Do not loan her money, if you give her money, do so with the mutual understanding of that is what you're doing. Loans are dangerous, both because they are unlikely to be paid back and also because the promise of repayment deflects what they really are (which is a gift). Nothing wrong with compensating her for lost income; as a matter of fact, I would encourage it. Better to know up front what the cost is rather than get her pressing for something larger later. If she does, flat out refuse it.

It sounds like you're enjoying yourself so nothing wrong with that. It seems that you are trying to convince yourself this is nothing serious (pointing out languages and backgrounds) but judging from what you're saying, this sounds like rationalization. Please just be honest with yourself.

I think it's a bit pre-mature to say in love with her. She's got her qualities, she's beautiful, positive thinking, independent (in the way she handles herself in this murky world of massage albeit veggie massage), she's filial to her mom, loves her family and she's kind and pleasant.

I know her but for about a week. Although we shared many heartfelt emotions, our lives and feelings, it takes a much longer time to really know somebody. My last relationship was about 5 years ago. I knew my ex-gf for 5 years and still, it wasn't enough.

The only reason i'm holding back and in denial as you put it was the fact that our backgrounds are vastly different. I admire her, not only for those aforementioned qualities, but also our sexual chemistry, but i'm also aware that physical pleasures and sexual chemistry will not last forever, and will not be enough to sustain a relationship.

I should add a reminder that she's NOT a WG. She's a masseuse and as i understand, works in various veggie massage shops.


She's in a bad spot. I've since told her i'm not in a position to help her. And told her what i'm earning, (although i did significantly play down my salary). I told her i can help her out with a few thousand dollars each time, but not in a position to help her out with serious dough.


I agree with you about the 'loan'. To be honest, I can probably afford the 20K, and i could imagine my heart will probably go soft and relent if she's really in a fix. And yes, despite being emotional, i try to be rational as well and the truth being the background differences would mean this relationship is only as good as it last.

I've been toying with the idea of sending her to courses to enrich herself. English course, computer course etc....

I might add that for the both of us, that puppy-love feeling happened again (she admit herself), and it's been a long time since we both had that feeling. Ultimately, it's not just about sex, it's about the GFE... feelings.... that warm fuzzy feeling every time you kiss/hug someone.... love? I don't know mate, its complicated.

[ Last edited by  maccalim at 28-3-2011 08:48 ]

Bro: you're definitely falling in love ... NONE of that is about a sexual relationship ... it's about forming a bond that tolerates all sort of unpleasant shit ... and every sentence you wrote is asexual.  I agree with you that stuff is important - very important - but you also have to be clear it's not SUFFICIENT for your own future to be assured.  

Question for you is: if you DO go ahead and start making a life together with her, where are you going to get the sex you need?  And how much can you afford to support her and her family?  

If you got those two handled, plus the issue of whether you can introduce her to all your friends / family / work colleagues - no problem, sounds like the road is clear for a happily-ever-after  

I feel you need to understand her more. Too short a time to know whether she's the right choice. She might have similar thinking like yours. which is to find somebody to be happily ever after. But I think this is not her focus now. So I think time will tell.

Yet if you are the emotional type, I believe you will not regret any decision you made or any sacrifice you made even though the ending is not what you expect.

This is one thing i don't think i can get around. All my friends/family are english speakers. I also work in a professional firm, and i do not think i can bring her to any functions when she doesn't speak english. Tongues will wag in my industry and it would be a career suicide if words get around that the woman i'm seeing works in a massage palour, regardless how legit it is. I don't wish to sound uppity, and wished this isn't the case but the reality of life is as such.

Bringing a girl who doesnt speak English to a social function is not a problem. What is a problem is that she acts like someone who doesn't have class, dresses cheap/sluttily, has no charm, knows very little, and lacks the conversational skills to comfortably interact with everyone.

You would be surprised at the backgrounds of many of the wives of the businessmen in HK. You have Stanley Ho whose 4th wive is a dancer. You have other local business men who married prc girls who were former factory workers, massage/restaurant girls, etc when these men were themselves just starting out. Then you have so many of the western guys who married thai / filipino girls they met in the parks on Sunday, at Wanchai, or back at some bars in Thailand / Philippines.

In HK, if you have money and learn the social skills, sketchy backgrounds will be overlooked.

So in conclusion, don't worry about the language barrier as languages can be learned.  More importantly make sure she learns dress sense, class, and conversational skills so she can charm the other party guests. In fact she may become so good that you will worry about your superior / colleagues stealing her heart.

Sorry - but I think you're giving the OP false hope.

Stanley Ho and Angela is NOT a good example as he's so rich that he really doesn't need anybody Else's approval whilst the OP has plainly stated that having open liaisons with this gal would be career suicide.

And as for those Western guys with the Filipina/Thai wives with less than salubrious backgrounds - you will note that in MOST instances, they've really taken a beating as far as their social status AND even with the way that others look upon them. Most will then just be relegated to socializing with others of their own situation and/or the wife's community - and those are truly a sad sight to me.  Apologize if I'm generalizing too the extreme or consigning all such liaisons to the same basket - but that is IMHO what the situation really is in the majority of cases - for Hong Kong as a society with longstanding prejudices really has NOT advanced that much.

The same set of "prejudices" has also put short shrift to many a local's social status and even affecting their careers/business.  That is unfortunately the reality still in Hong Kong.

So, maccalim - I still suggest you go ahead and enjoy yourself to the hilt BUT to KNOW the reality of it all.  Give it a few weeks, a few months - I'm quite sure that you'll come to your own senses without us suggesting one thing or another.

Again, Good luck!

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 28-3-2011 16:36 ]

The main problem with learning all those "class" skills as well as English is that she's in her mid 30s already, while even Stanley Ho's 4th wife was in her mid/late 20s when he met him. It's going to be tough for her to relearn the entire world and I'm getting the impression that maccalim will need to throw a lot of resources her way in order to even pretend that she met him under more socially acceptable circumstances.

My apologies, mate, for not being more clear: the issue is that anyone who works in a massage shop, veggie or not, and is considering taking a job as a mamasan, knows that she is giving up something to do so. There is a social stigma that limits relationship experiences. WG face a similar trade-off, although perhaps more extreme. That was the point I was trying to make: her life choices have limited her relationship prospects and she certainly understands that. This should give you an idea of her place in life and priorities. I do not intend to be judgmental, she probably has good reasons for doing so.


Please take a step back and look at the situation:

You are paying her for her company. This, again, is not to say that she's a WG (as she is not doing this for everyone) but there is a financial transaction happening here. This leads to several issues:

1) How can you really know what she thinks or feels? You seem like a nice bloke and probably treat her better than she's used to so I would assume she does enjoy herself. But how much and her true interest level is impossible to gauge. Furthermore, to make the point, would you accept money, even if you needed it, from a girlfriend for spending time with her?

2) You seem to have settled into a very nebulous relationship where boundaries are not defined. Can she go back to China and stay with her male friend? What can you expect from her and vice versa? Do you have input on her life choices?

3) There is the language and cultural issue

From my experience, the success or failure of a relationship is determined early; if it gets off on a wrong foot, it is nearly impossible to change. This one appears to have gotten off on the wrong foot and, from your posts, you seem to sense this.

Can you turn this into a more traditional relationship? Impossible to say but I would not ascribe high odds.

My advice, for what it's worth, is this: enjoy what you have and accept that this is probably it. It is no better or worse than what a lot of people in Hong Kong have and if you enjoy it, I wish you the best. I am trying to caution, you, though, not to get too emotionally or financially involved. You seem to be the more vulnerable party. Also, I would suggest that any money you give you do so knowing full well what you are paying and what you are getting (and what you are getting is the feeling of the moment with no strings attached on her end or yours).

I would suppose you probably feel good for feeling that you are helping her but, again, I would strongly advise not to send her to classes or the like. Give her whatever money you feel appropriate for the time and let her decide what to do with it. You will complicate things unnecessarily if you do otherwise.

Nah

don't try to teach an old dog new tricks

VERY different to take a village girl straight out of school and give her an education

But even then, you can take the girl out of the village but not the village out of the girl.  

and also VERY different to two young people figuring out life's challenges together, and winning acceptance from the wider community through the school of hard knocks.  

Even in the romantic version of the story, remember the scene in Pygmalion, where the girl starts spouting street-talk in an impeccable cut-glass accent?  That's what you risk: someone who comes out completely frumpy after the first impression.  Do you really have the guts to take all that?  

Keep it on an animal level, fuck because you both need to fuck, and you'll do fine.  But if she starts to ask for or offer making a commitment, step back.

Well what you say is generally is very true and may be especially true for the OP because he is still young, has relatively just arrived in our Asian shores and is lonely, and does not understand the culture in Asian deep enough.

Yet I do know of friends who manage to minimize the village part of the girl as much as possible.

I think in one friend's case, he was able to make it work because he was much older (about 20 years and the girl was in her early 20s) and more street-smart than the girls herself plus more importantly they lived together in China for several years to allow as my friend put it, 'I am training her to live outside of China and to test her sincerity of her love for him'. As part of the sincerity test, he told her straight out that he will never give her money for her to give to her family and the girl was fine with it. Last I heard they are happily married and living in California.

In another case, the girl is older than the guy but is smart enough to maintain a particular charm and good conversations skills in English in front of his friends as she doesnt want to lose her catch. Though at first the guy was suspicious of her sincerity, eventually he was won over by her charm and business skills in helping him make more money. She may not come across as someone from high society but at least she doesn't sound like she is from China but like someone who is from NT.

I have been to enough social functions in HK to know that a good percentage of the local women who consider themselves high society are boring as hell as they cannot discuss any topic, besides shopping, eating, and property, deep enough to have a decent discussion. Not much better than the PRC girls. Forget about discussing the whys of a particular current news event that is taking place. It is just over the years, they learned to constantly polish their image to the point that one at first would be intimidated by them feeling one is not as high on the ladder as they are.

But here is the kicker that would make life for the OP tough, though these rich women might themselves know they don't know much, they will fiercely 'protect' their cultivated, polished image and don't want any of the 'unwashed' to join their society as it would draw attention to themselves not being as cultivated as they would like to see themselves as being.

[ Last edited by  doghead at 29-3-2011 12:16 ]

the common factor in both of your examples is that the woman made a huge effort to fit in, and had a big incentive to get it right in each case - one because of the disproportionate power of the sugar-daddy, the other because she's smart enough to realise she doesn't get another chance at her age.  

and


is indeed the issue.  If you take an "outsider" as a life partner, you have to be already strong enough (in social connections and economic power) to stand up to the rejections you'll get.  Instead of being invited in, you'll be excluded unnecessarily, for fear your presence will remind them of their greatest fears and insecurities: that their own husbands might also prefer to be fucking a good-looking woman who's got neither "class" (in their eyes) / education / nor wealth but is willing to be more giving in bed than they are.  

Look at it this way, it's a good thing to feel compassion for a good-looking and affectionate single mum who's having to work long hours and contemplating selling her body ... but if you feel compassion for one of them, what about all the dozens (no, make that thousands) of others just like her?  Soon as you're hitched to one of them, she's going to decide she's somehow better than all the others, and demand you avoid all other deserving cases ...

If you want to do charity, much better to choose a partner who will help you be successful, make lots of money and power, and then use both to give help where it's needed and most appreciated.  Don't get married to a charity project.