Simple - me saying that we Chinese are still basically bigotted - and you telling us all that No - Chinese are not!

SEAJ

Ooooohhh.....WOW!!  Kevlar my buddy my friend is starting something with me now!!

Oooooh - Now where does it hurt??  You want mommie to kiss and make it feel all better?

Care to explain??   My buddy , my friend?

SEAJ

Joe, you do NOT speak for everyone in HK. You do NOT represent how everyone in HK feels. You may not even be in the majority? Now, back to topic, what I have said is NOT how YOU feel or act. I have told you how I feel. I have told you I do NOT feel especially bigoted against. I'm telling you I don't. How does that translate into me telling you what Chinese think and feel??? I'm telling you how I feel. There's a big difference.

Well - it's like what I'm STILL trying to tell you!

IMHO, you're just the typical thick skinned foreigner who just cannot detect the nuances of certain words and/or gestures.  REPEAT - racism/bigotry here is very much toned down and not the in your face kind of bigotry elsewhere.  

This "fine art" had been developed all through the years when we as the majority Chinese really did not have the Political/economical/social clout to be able to say much when being prejudiced against.

So OF COURSE  the brash Aussie that you are, you cain't even detect when you're being prejudiced against.

Jeez!  The things I have to do just to make one kwai lo understand!  OOOoooopps! LOL!

SEAJ

i haven't been called a Kwai Lo for years Joe, Thx... I'd forgotten how liberating it felt!

Come to think of it - what's with this B.S. statement of yours that you don't feel any prejudice AT ALL in China??!!

I've been going into China - pretty regularly I may add - starting from 1983 (Yes, whilst I was still in my diapers!) and even today I still feel LOTS of prejudice from the mere fact that I'm from Hong Kong!  

I still get ripped off regularly by taxi drivers, shop-keepers, Mommies ..... - and have them laugh at my face at my poor command of my lousy Putonghua!  Accompanied by rolling of eyes, shaking of head and exclamation - "Xiangang ren!"  No prejudice huh?!!

Or perhaps....just perhaps ... its probably just jealousy stemming from my urbane good looks - right?

LOL!

SEAJ

Joe, you're missing the point. I have said [repeatedly] i accept there is prejudice in China and HK. In fact I accept it exists EVERYWHERE. The part I think is bullshit, especially when talking about Hong Kong (which was the initial reason I had to question Kennichi's comments) is the suggestion that "MANY" Foreigners walk around acting like they own the place "AND" as a result Foreigners in HK have a bad reputation. I call BULLSHIT!

Prior to post #5 of this thread (excerpt below) only the term "foreigner" had been used...


Your preceding post #26 drags issues into this discussion that are not related to my comments. Do locals in China "occasionally" try and rip of out of towners? of course they do. It happens everywhere. Do locals in China mock your attempts at fluent Mandarin? Clearly you say they do. However, I am not debating any of this.

I am saying that "most" Foreigners (especially in HK) do not walk around acting like they own the place. As one of these so called Foreigners, I can say I dont feel especially prejudiced against in HK or China (Fujian, GZ, Shandong, SHanghai, Beijing).

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 27-12-2010 12:40 ]

Ah bah Humbug!!

No, ALL the Chinese LOVE all the forgeiners, all forgegners are gentlemen, and NO - I ain't fightin' no Kenichi battles for him no more!

You "mad forgeiners" just never give up do you??!!

OK OK Uncle...UNCLE Tony!!

Now, lets go back to talkin' about something closer to my heart - like how such a discussion as this would have been perfect on a CENTRAL CHAT THREAD instead of located all over the place, hijacking OP's too many times with inane endless discussion!

SEAJ

The way you're taking things, maybe the best central thread for this kind of "discussions" would be the fight thread

Hey Jck - You're always hot to trot to tell people to go to the fight thread.  
To the point where I REALLY wonder what it's all about - this thing about you being so enamored of it?

Care to explain?

Or would YOU just rather go ahead and try it out all yourself?
Perhaps go a few rounds over there?
Just to see if it REALLY is such a good idea?

Muahahaha!!

SEAJ

Jack, no need for fight club mate, the problem here is not aggression based... we're all friends... it's just that Joe doesn't read posts carefully if they don't contain RA pics.

Oooooohhh.... you're really gonna get it NOW from my friend my buddy Kevlar - NOW!

Straying off topic!!

Shame on you!!  Same to you too Jckjr - shame on you!

ROFLMAO

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 27-12-2010 18:00 ]

I think most Chinese are OK with a lot of foreigners.  As for younger generation cooling off hatred, it's not 100% true.  I am born in the USA, I have nothing to do with China with the exception that my bloodlines are Chinese but when I watch TVB series or movies about WW2, I Fucking fume!  I am angry at all Japanese for a week, then it subsides.  I just finished watching a TVB series called NO REGRETS, the shit you see, even in a made for TV series will bring up hatred of the Japanese even though we (the new generation) was never a part of it.  



One of the better series as of late.

I am an overseas Chinese dude who has lived in HK since the early 90's.  When HK was under the English administration, there was definitely an inferiority complex among many of the HK-born Chinese.  I guess many of those who grew up and lived under the English had to learn to kiss expat ass to in order to prosper and be accepted in the right social circles.  

To many of the overseas Chinese and mainland-born Chinese, this inferiority attitude was quite pitiable at times to watch.  Many times my friends and I have seen laowais push around local guys knowing the local guys would just 'take it' quietly. But because we overseas Chinese had to learn to fight back overseas to get our 'rights' in our respective countries, there many times my friends got into fights with laowais in LKF or in the bars of Wanchai.  

Once I had an English gweilo apologize to me after I pushed back when he tried to push me out of his way.  This is what he said to me: "Sorry mate, I thought you were local."  In that statement, he had low opinion of his Colonial subjects, but had utmost respect for me as an equal because I come from another country.  

Now things are so different.  HK has been returned to China and is under the Beijing administration.  China has risen in international economic and political rankings.  HK people have gained some self-confidence when it comes to dealing with laowais.  The laowais who remained after the handover and those who came afterward are respectful of all Chinese.  Many laowais who come here now know a good amount of Mandarin and are willing to learn Canto which has gone a long way to warming the hearts of the locals.   

Most importantly the locals, esp the local guys have found the confidence to stand up to (or push back or fight when needed) when harassed or insulted by laowais which has led to a mutually more respectful atmosphere among all parties. The local guys and laowai guys have learned to overcome their old aminosities via drinking at LKF, Wanchai, Macau together and learned we are all the same - we all like to visit wgs.  


So TonyToro is correct, most laowais are treated respectfully equally as well the laowais treat the locals these days.  


Scootermonger : Shanghai guys are known to be wimps who talk big by most of the mainland Chinese guys. If those Frenchy guys caused any trouble in northern China, they would get their asses punked because those northern guys are all 'action and no talk'.

God damn right!  Those northerners scare me! Even in the US, I knew a Beijinger who met a Fujianese woman married to an older guy (Both ran a small business), 2 months later the husband is gone and the Beijinger is taking care of the business.  My guess, probably buried somewhere

Thanks to Bros sexpert & doghead for weighing in on this discussion. I think it says very positive things about this"community" that a discussion like this can be had without becoming a "racial A vs B" argument.

sexpert: Thanks for your insight and honesty in post #33. You seem to agree with Geoduck's statement in post #9.

doghead: mutual respect is the key, like anywhere in the world. Thanks for your thoughts.

All you say is quite correct and what my experience had most been living in Hong Kong all these years - well put too I may add!

But that little piece at the end....Man, I had to laugh....coz therein lies the true nature of most of us Chinese!! We DO have racial stereotypes way at the back of our heads after all!

SEAJ

And take that same experience to an audience of impressionable young Chinese who've just found that that the taste of freedom is so liberating, who then finds his own vast sea of equally impressionable young minds all available at a click of the mouse, throw in one party or another most times taking a deft hand steering the drama as it unfolds.... that is what you have in China now.

What I'm always worried about -  AND expect to happen sooner or later - is that there is going to be some malevolent "deft hands" manipulating events to disastrous results. Be it motivated by racial, economic, autnomy, religious...or any other reason.

SEAJ
sp/grammar edits

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 29-12-2010 11:31 ]

I wonder if I, being of mixed parentage, would be allowed to butt in to this conversation without being told that I don't know what it means to be Chinese.

I have seen various forms of racism and prejudice in many parts of the world, from people of different races too.  In my experience, the only thing that people in Hong Kong are normally guilty of is sweeping generalisations rather than any inherent racism.

These generalisations can manifest into individual acts of prejudice.  People will, for example, choose to sit next to a local on a bus rather than next to an Indian or Pakistani.  I have actually heard people say that they don't like to sit next to Pakistanis because "they smell bad".  The problem with stereotypes like this is that even though it generally may not be true, when there are rare incidences of it being true it simply re-enforces that stereotype.

These generalisations can be positive as well as negative.  For every person who dislikes foreigners, for whatever reason, there is another who likes foreigners.  For every person who dislikes Japanese, there is another who loves Japan.  So, yes, I do feel that many people in Hong Kong are guilty of over-generalisation and having a simplified view of the world, but I do not subscribe to the motion that Chinese are inherently racist, which is a racist statement in itself.

I have noticed, however, more aggressive forms of racism in the mainland recently.  I do not think that this is proof positive of general racism in society per se, but rather a result of government support of nationalism.  If you protest against corruption or poisoned baby milk then you should be prepared to face jail time, but if you protest against anything Japanese then feel free to march and riot to your heart's content.  The government know that there are underlying social tensions right now, and it is easy to use nationalism to vent that tension.  Beijing seem happy to allow people to let off steam, as long as its directed towards the Japanese, who, as we all know, are fair game in the mainland.  This has been long supported in mainland editorials that regularly warn against a return to Japanese imperialism every time there is a dispute.  Because it doesn't matter who is right, the Japanese are always wrong.  These days it is becoming standard practice for Beijing to label any criticism of China as either anti-Chinese propaganda, when it comes from overseas, and subversion, when it is home-grown.

In Hong Kong, even though there are sometimes protests against Japan, we are far more likely to protest against national or local issues.  In the mainland, however, even locally-owned sushi restaurants had better lock their security screens when the protests come, because those rioting sheep are going to seriously mess up your storefront.  This kind of group aggression towards a particular race is unheard of in Hong Kong.  Perhaps our mainland cousins are guilty of being easily influenced rather than actually being racist.

This is ridiculous!! But these kind of stories can happen anywhere not just GZ... GZ gets the attention because some one posts the video