I think it has more to do with the equality of sex movement. Now girls can afford to be picky because they don't need men to survive.

It doesn't hurt to see what punters think. Many of the bros here have families too.  In its own twisted way, you get to see what the life on the other side is like.

everyone is selfish, anyone that tells you otherwise is a fucking liar. relationships requires a lot of work and will pretty much tie you down. every decision you make will not only affect you but your s.o also. throw a kid in the equation then you got yourself a shitload of responsibilities. these are big steps in your life and once you make them it will be hard to take them back. if you like your life now then live it the way it is, don't let your mom trick you into getting married and having kids. most parents would like their sons to settle down, but that life isn't for everyone. sometime the single life is the best life, but like i said it's not for everyone.

you can have a de-facto relationship.... why get married... you still can have kids together if that is what your heart wants..

pending which country you live in.. beeening in a defacto relationship gives you the same law rights as beening in a married relationship, so in other words if things go sour.. she takes half your assets..

at the end of the day do you want to live by your self til you die or do you want to share things with another....

Do you actually have any kids bro???   If so you should share your secret.  

Parenting means:-
  sleep deprivation
  disrupted and greatly restricted social life
  cost of living (and therefore your income needs) double to triple what it would otherwise be
  combined with reduced options for work location / career mobility
  hormonally induced insecurities
  emotional and cognitive challenges you can neither imagine nor prepare yourself for as they grow into and go through adolescence
and much more.  It is ANYTHING BUT "easy".  It is the single most challenging and most gruelling commitment an adult will ever make in their lives.  

Is it worth it?  
Ask any parent and almost all will say "yes" without hesitation or reservation.  

But anyone who thinks they can do it in an "easy" way is imho in cloud cuckoo land or smoking something impressive.

Go live in France - you can get married for a defined term, such as 2 years.  At the end of the term, you separate.  

Since it's legal in France, you could (I guess) then travel the World with some degree of official status as a couple.  Even though other jurisdictions don't formally recognise the status under their own regime it would be interesting to see it tested for (for example) an application for a dependent visa, or maybe a Green Card in the US.  

Anyone have any 1st hand experience of the arrangement, and how it's handled when travelling?

If you don't overwhelm your kids with things to learn plus you don't have a life beyond your family and career, I think it should be manageable.

And the point is you have to love parenting your kids, then you will find parenting "easy".

Selfish is ok but selfish to the point of hurting others, then it is a big no-no

Biggest understatement of the century! LOL!  Before I was married, I had many GFs, including my now wife.  I fucked around, did my college thing, did my work thing and continued to play the field.  No worries, NOTHING.  Decided it was time to marry my now wife, bought the engagement ring, set everything up for the surprise, and married her because I love her.  No pressure from my parents, no pressure from her parents, I actually married pretty early and it was 100% my decision.  If my parents would have pushed, I would have told them to go fuck themselves, I come from a pretty liberal family.  If I had not met my wife, I probably would not have gotten married.  Like one of my siblings said, "Ah So must be pretty special for you to propose marriage" and she really is.  Marriage was great!  Spending time with the one you love, getting all those good things that were mentioned in post #1 but those lovey dovey feelings fade and "real deep true love" develops during a marriage if done right, otherwise like my other relationships, I'd get bored with the bitch and just break up.

The first child "SHOULD" be what both parties want and need, otherwise you or she would resent it forever.  My first child was made from love and a desire for a child, I hate to admit it but my eldest is my favorite and always will be.  After the child is born, and if you want to be a responsible father, it basically means all of the above what DArtagnan said, you literally fucking give up EVERYTHING!  After my first, it was so fucking exhausting but yet so fucking awesome we had another, then another and 2 more on the way.  I chose this life, I love this life.  If you have any doubts, I have three words for you, NO STOP and DON'T.  I have a lot of friends who were pressured into marriage, and they resent it so much that it affects everything in their lives.  

Do I sometimes think?  Man I wished I could have some time alone to punt, so that I don't have to worry about hickeys, perfumes, bath soaps, lipstick stains, strange calls from papa and mamasans.  FUCK YES!  There are times when I feel trapped, if I said otherwise I would be lying out of my ass, but in the end, the rewards (to me) trump everything else.  I am a bit older, I don't fuck as much but I still get those "manly feelings" and wake up with woodies daily.  I figured, a few rub and tug massages a month, a punt a week here in NYC will get me through most of my "NEEDS" but I still take that trip to China annually to allow those "NEEDS" to flood out, basically fuck til I can't fuck anymore or don't want to fuck anymore, and in the end you end up missing your family and wishing that they were there with you.

Once out of my system, I am back in the states, enjoying the family life and feeling pretty content until 3 months later when I can't wait to go back to China.  You can even see my trends on this forum, right before I go back, I am on this shit and typing away like crazy, after the initial reports I dud out and spend time with the family till my "NEEDS" start to creep up again, then you will see me on the forum again.

Final word, marry if you really love the girl and really want to marry for the sake of love.  Otherwise, just be free and if worse comes to worse, go to China and find a nice country bumpkin, knock her up a few times and still have the independent freedom of a bachelor.

sexpert might be the luckiest man in this forum!

First, don't ever do anything because your mom or someone else tells you to.  Follow your heart and live your life.

From my perspective, marriage is very hard and people change; my son, however, is the best thing in the world.  He is worth all the suffering and pain that goes with dealing with her mother (as long as a get a trip to DG every once in a while to get my freak on).   

Sexpert. well said. You are indeed a lucky man. I think people who get married under duress are the ones that get divorced in the end. Glad you've achieved such a good balance and a happy man.

Let's not ignore the good side of marriage. Afterall it feels it is someone one would go through in order to have a "complete" life. And then when you're old and you'll feel a lot differently than when you're young and horny now. You'd wish you have kids and family with memories to share and graduations to go to.
Sexexpert you're lucky that your family allows you to go to China! Everyone knows what happens to a single man in China!

You are absolutely right about men going to China, not so much about going to Hong Kong.  95% of my married friends have no excuse nor would their SOs allow them to go to China because they "know" what goes on in China.  For me, I've been going to China for so many years now, not only for pleasure but because of the nature of my job I get to go to China whenever I need to which is usually 1 or 2 times a year.  It's not like I go to China and come back with less money.  So my family knows this, accepts this, and it's not an issue since I've never given my wife a chance to be suspicious of anything.  I am incredibly careful because my family means so much to me, I know it's fucking hypocritical for me to say that, even ironic in a way but a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do.  My business trips are actually really exhausting at times, but I usually allow myself a day or two extra to get my punt on, on top of my work.  Even when I do overnighters, I usually go very early, and wake up at 5am, grab some food and video chat with my family at 6-9 while they are having dinner in the states, and still end up chatting with my wife till 12, then collapse for a few hours before I punt again.  So right after dinner, I still go on video chat to see my kids and wife off to school and work, it's a bit tiring but I truly miss them even when I am punting.  One of my friends says it best, "you can go to China by yourself, but when you have kids and a wife at home in the states, you will have fun for the 1 hour, but immediately after you will (GWAH) them, so it's never as fun as you think it is, until you go"  (GWAH) in Cantonese meaning a mixture of WORRIED and MISSING someone.  Like I said, you will feel the rush of independence at first but then you will be wanting to be trapped with your family again in very short time.  Although I have friends who would leave their families if they ever hit the lottery, a lot of them are staying married for financial reasons.  Me? I would share it all with them.  To each his own

As you say bro: you "think ...", and that's the only smart thing you say.    You have no first hand knowledge yourself and are talking like an idiot.  

Yes, you do have to love parenting, but loving your work does NOT make it easy, it just means you get a kick out of the stresses and challenges.  The stresses and challenges are still very real and carry a very real price.

As I said, I am willing to sacrifice anything but my career for the kids. I think that's already more than what most modern parents are willing to sacrifice. Plus, I am not going to push my kids to learn all kinds of stuff. I also think if I tried my best and my kid gone bad, then I am at peace with myself.

Parenting has been going on for millions of years. Please don't make it look like it is harder than it is.

If you don't sacrifice your career for the kids you unavoidably end up sacrificing your kids for your career ... and that (as you say) is very common, and ALWAYS sad to see.  Never mind: counsellors and therapists need to make a living from sorting out their feelings of abandonment and neglect when they get older.


It has.  It's totally natural, and your mind-body system is preprogrammed with tons of rewards and payoffs that your kids will automatically trigger, which cannot be activated any other way.  There's definitely a buzz, if you're involved and engaged.


I'm not.  It's simply the hardest and most gruelling endurance course you will ever take on in your life.  Why is it there are so many inbuilt reward mechanisms have evolved into our makeup?  Obviously it's because they are required to compensate for the toll it takes on you ...  

I'm not saying don't do it (read again).  I'm saying it's hard work and requires a lot of commitment.  People who take on parenting without commitment end up regretting their lack of commitment, but only after it's too late to fix it.  That includes a lot of career-oriented colleagues I've met who are saying "what happened to my kids during their teenage years?  why did I miss it?"

I don't think we can convince each other. But I think it is good that we let our view known.

I know many career oriented professionals who had too many networking events to attend and always put their kids in daycare and interest classes. Then when their kids are old enough, they sent them to boarding schools. Basically they tried to spend as little time with their kids as possible. It is not surprising that they end up don't understand their kids.

For me, once I get off work and then I don't work nor networking for my career if I have young kids. I won't have a life outside work and family. As I said, this should be more than what your career oriented professional friends willing to sacrifice. I know you will disagree with me about this. But I think we can agree on disagreeing.   

My parenting philosophy mirrors a guy I admire. Lu Qi of Microsoft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu
I think you can google his name for inspiration.

Not having had kids it's vitally important that you make it clear to readers that your opinion is based on speculation not on fact.  With that proviso of course you should be free to express your views ... just like any other fantasy ...

Lu Qi is impressive PRECISELY because he is the EXCEPTION not the rule.

If you want a rational and highly effective parenting philosphy, you'd do better to study Maria Montessori's writings.  That is at least based on objective research, has sound psychological and developmental foundations, and consistently achieves results with the MAJORITY of kids, not just with the exceptional ones that buck the trend.

forgive me for asking, but four kids in NYC?!?!?  That's crazy, dude.  How do you afford it?  We have one kid and we do very well, but we feels squeezed.