Soft as in its dynamite fishing.  Pretty much guaranteed money if you put in the time.

Personally I like having super tight people at the table who fold to any 3bet, you're basically stealing nonstop and it would add up really fast.  I don't think the tables are that tight though .. you'll get a lot of players who will follow 120-200 hkd with ATo or less.  

Lower limit tables you'll find can be very profitable, even more so than the higher limit tables.  Typically the players are better at higher limits, so if you can find really loose players who will reload nonstop, the lower limit table has more fresh money coming into the table.

I will play 5/5 or 5/10 and up to 10/20 USD in the states, but IMHO the weakest game I found in Macau was the 10/20 HKD in Grand Lisboa.  Sure the stakes were lower per hand, but it's nonstop winning.

I won anywhere from 15,000 to 28,000 HKD a day for seventeen days during Dec 2009 - Jan 2010.  Two days not included in there, I lost about 1,000 - 2,000 HKD because I was card dead and exhausted by playing the tournament, so I quickly stopped.

I'm not sure what kind of prize structure you want, but I won 36,000 HKD placing 1st, and 21,000 HKD placing 2nd in the 90k Saturday Guarantee, another 8,xxx HKD in the 40k Friday Rebuy, and 4,000 HKD in the Tuesday Deepstack at the Grand Lisboa.  That's not too bad I think considering the buy-in isn't that high.

To put it in perspective, I was asked everyday if I wanted to move to the 20/40 and sign up for the 50/100 by management, but I refused each time.  Higher limits don't always mean higher profits, sometimes you just have to go with what works.

i doubt any player can make consistantly 15-28k  a day on a 10/20  those are just very very very good and very very long and very very lucky days...
its not something you can count on on the long term...

im seriously thinking to move over for a few months, cause the game here is dying and im missing the honeys

I'm just telling you my experience during the holiday season.  I expect the returns were juiced up by a bunch of vacationing players just out to spend and have a good time.  

At a buy-in of 3,000 HKD, you only need to stack 3-4 players over the course of a session.  With players ready to go All-In with mid-high flushes, I don't really think it's that hard to stack people here.  And as you mentioned, they fold rather easily.  So if you can consistently steal 150-500 HKD per pot, it adds up very fast.

But I'd say I wasn't alone in this.  There is a couple of players you'll see at the Grand Lisboa playing 10/20 who consistently walk out of there with 8-15k winnings.  One guy I saw lose only one day the entire time I was there.  I avoided him and he avoided me at the tables lol.

The fact that you don't like super tight players is a serious leak in your game, as they are a major and easily milked source of profits.

I'd say that you're right in that I can't count on winning everyday indefinitely, but it was a good run and it was fun.  Poker has never been and hopefully will never be my primary source of income anyways.

Next time, give the Grand Lisboa a shot.  I think you'll be surprised at the results if you're a solid player.

"With players ready to go All-In with mid-high flushes, I don't really think it's that hard to stack people here."

Thats what i mean with lucky sessions, its not quite "normal" to have a few flush over flush situations in one session, and im saying this with 3 years live poker experience...
And im sure you won a lot with set over 2 pairs situations... cause in GL those are the only situations where they will stack off  they at least have  2pair or better.. and if that was not the case then grats for having the right players in ur table..

Leak in my game, i can assure you 90% of pokerplayers DONT LIKE super tight players in the game, reason is very simple = those players never stack off..
its always preflop raise and cbet on flop  max 10-20bb's a time, and if they call u down, then ur fucked cause mostly they will have a better hand, and u need to risk ur stack to bluff them off..

maybe we have a diff def of super tight players  but to me they are : those who only play premiums.. AA-TT AK AQ   AJ KJ KQ fold oop with raise
major and easily source of profits? you mean stealing theri blinds???   i play for stacks, not for some blinds stealing... and in a 10/20 game its not even worth it... 50/100 would be diff

i played in GL many times, never played more than 2 hours there, everytime its the same, no action....  i dont have the patient like many who can sit there and play 5 hands a hour...

im more a loose agrressive player, its very -EV sitting with 9 nits on a table, but doesnt matter what style u play, with 9 nits on a table it can never be profitable enough...

where u from mark? and when will u be back?

Ah i missed this post, if they are supertight they wouldnt open much, and they wouldnt fold to ANY 3bet, those who fold to ANY 3bet are not considered supertight....     anyway seems like you had a totall diff table than i was having all the time, im always with the local nits who have no problem folding toppairs...


anyway will you be in macau around feb/march and summer? if you are i want to meet up and have a sidebet with you.. (only if you are interested) cause i want to see how someone can win 15k-28k a day  for 17days in a row on nitty 10/20 GL

lets say the bet is you need to win 20k a day  and that for 5 days or a longer sampel 7 out of 11 days or sth,  i will put up 200k hkd for this bet..

p.s. dont tell me you were having 20hours a day sessions.. in that case it is possible to have an hourly rate of 750ish hkd

[ Last edited by  Finn at 26-1-2010 15:39 ]

It really depends how you play the game.  I will call two pair when the other person has a certain flush for the 4 outs that will stack him.  If the return is good enough, I will call it down.

I guess it's different, I like these supertight players because even when they hit top pair, they are liable to fold to any flush/straight draw bet, and they generally don't push you.  In that kind of poker game, you'll often win if you use aggression properly.  And if you are saying 10-20 BB you can steal in a pot, that all adds up.  

Frankly, I don't agree with your statement of "and u need to risk ur stack to bluff them off.." because that's not a very good strategy to use.  I rarely bluff, and only do so if I know the other player has a sub-par hand.  Bluffing a calling station or somebody who has a real hand is very bad EV if you ask me.

Supertight players are those who play premium hands, and they don't bet hard.  In these cases, you'll get a lot of their money when they are in a hand.  Ie, they have QQ, you have AJs, the flop is KT4 rainbow.  They will check, you bet, they call, you bet again on the turn, you win.  That's not small money anymore.  If you sense they have a very good hand, lay it down.  

I'm from the Philippines, might come back in March for the Macau Poker Cup.

Well, when I play seriously, I will play for at least 10 hours, up to 22 hours once that trip.  That takes a lot of the variance out of the game, and allows you to build a proper stack to intimidate and steal pots.  I'd say I would average about ... 12 hours a day during the trip, more if you count the tournaments.

The most important reason why I can win all the time is that it is hard to stack me.  During my trip, I only got stacked twice, and that was a set over set experience, and my full house got counterfeited with quads on the river.  I've played enough to know when to discard AQ on a board of AQT, when the stakes are simply not worth it.

Frankly, I hate playing at the Wynn, it's far too dark and gloomy in there.

And besides, you don't need to sidebet with me.  Just play at my table and you'll figure out for yourself if I'm good enough to win 20k in a day.

As a small test, go to the Grand Lisboa and play with two guys, one is a Korean guy with a Goofy jacket, the other is an old Chinese guy with a miniature fan he puts on the table.  Neither is supertight, and those guys win everyday.  If you can consistently beat them, then maybe you are a better player than I am.

When I play with either of the two players, I sit after them, or I avoid any major confrontation unless I'm sure I'm ahead. Vice versa.  So many fish at 10/20 there's no need for "bluffs" or any fancy play.

guys...you can't discuss how much you make per/day..unless it is an avg...i think the best way to describe it is how much you make/hand...but for simplicity sake..lets stick with $/month...that way we get an avg...

but even so...in a year with 12 months..you might have two months were you are -$100k or more...Varience is a bit part of poker..and that is the reason why 'poker players' usually care a full time job because not everyone is emotionally up to the challenge of leading the life of a poker player...i know many friends with huge pools of talent...but no emotional control...usually the most profitable...(notice i didn't say the best) players are those control their emotions the best through swings....

as a 'part-time' job in HK while i was working and playing poker on the weekends i probably avg...$20-30k extra a month? but i only played on weekends...

Finn...what do u look like? lol....Hope I don't take your money once I'm back =P

Well, over 17 days the last trip, I won 345,200 HKD or about ~ 2,600 USD / day.

This combines both cash and tournament games, and might have a few thousand chips from the regular casino mixed in by accident.

Per hand, that's pretty hard to calculate unless you are playing online.  Typically though, I would play in 10+ hour stretches to take max advantage of chip stack and momentum.  I find that if I play two hours a day I will be up a lot or down some in that time, while a longer average period of play usually has me comfortably up, or breaking even/losing a little.

I will also leave if I am completely card dead, running bad, or getting bad beat nonstop.  I also subscribe to the stacked-twice-leave strategy.  When that happens, you aren't going to be in any state to be playing your best, better to go to D1 or Rio and go for a sure win instead.  Usually players get hit badly when they are bad beat and expect things to improve, this is usually a big mistake as it's obvious your luck sucks today, and you'll likely be playing worse, not a good combination.

I actually don't usually calculate too much, because there is no way I would ever be able or want to become a full time poker player.  You can make more money in business, and frankly it's more exciting than looking down at two cards all day, even if you get dealt rockets two times in a row.

I think earning 20-30k extra a month on top of your salary isn't bad for recreational fun.  I earned a decent amount during my vacation, but I doubt I'd want to play that much poker again in such a short span of time anytime soon.  It was almost like work lol.

man you guys are hardcore poker players..
unfortunately for me, here in canada, not many big poker tournaments unless i fly to vegas..
the best i can get is online through full tilt...
currently fulltilting my way on "RUSH POKER" which is fun... but at extremelly low stakes

I do want to put up the sidebet, cause im sure its a superhot heater. And if  you think you can win 20k daily on a 10/20 GrandLisboa game, then here is your chance to win 200k more.

Like i said, ive been to GL, i was there in feb/mar 2008 when they just provided poker, i was there in november 2008, i was there during summer of 2009  and in november 2009, i know what kind of games been running ,  and ive been playing live 1/2euro 5/5 euro  5/10 euro for 3 straight years, and 20k swings are definitely not on 10/20hkd games.

and variance is not based on a short sample of 200 hands a day, (10 hours of 20hand/hour live play).


I will be there around march, i hope to meet up and you accept the bet, we can maybe do a little bit less, or make it even more interesteing  loser pays 10 times D1 visits...

I'm no rookie to poker either and I play occasionally and this sounds interesting. A challenge to markreyes if he's able to win $20k/day. Does sound like a lot of money unless you're a really good player. I'll be there in late feb as well so i'd like to come and see. I woldnt mind playing against you guys either. toodles

Young chinese guy with attitude (thinks im one of the better players walking around lol)  178-180cm.. and for sure not ugly...

ill think i go back around feb/march still checking out the dates.. dunno wether before Chinese New Year, or after.. any advise on this? I havenever expeirenced CNY in hk yet... so it might be interesting to make it before...


yeah dont take my money and if you do, treat me on D1

when will u be tehre pak?a

its not about being a really good player or not...
its about how hot you run (getting the right coolers, AA vs KK, set over set, flush over flush etc.), and what kind of players you have against you.. if none of them put any money in the pot even Phil Ivey can't make 20k a day on a 10/20...
and afaik NOT everyone buys in for 3k (max) most of them buy in for 1k,  and then there is the rake factor... by winning 20k/day  how much rake have you been paying?

im for sure markreyes is NOT a bad player... thats out of question..  but if hes so sure he can do it on a longer sample, then be my guest and take the 200k or whatever amount he wants from me..

im just not buying the fact that one can win 20k a day like its the easiest tihng on earth on a 10/20   and im sure many many other live players will agree with me...
lets say hes grinding like hell  and plays 25days a month   thats 500k/month    on a 10/20..    then he earns more than most well known professionals.. roiwise..

so thats why i put up the sidebet.. and if hes able to pull it out, then ill shut the fuck up, hopes he can be my coach and im 200k down...

and to markreyes, dont take this as something like an personal attack or sth... i have mad respect for the fact u were able to win 300k in 17 days...
i just want to earn 200k on an very easy way... so eitehr way... lets do a sidebet... doesnt neccessary need to be 200k... any amount will be fine... a freeroll is always welcome

[ Last edited by  Finn at 27-1-2010 11:35 ]

I'm going to b back in HK in July...

Dude..are you from Singapore?? Wear glasses? Have a girl friend who plays crazy hyper aggressive?

dude..i folded KK once...and QQ multiple times in Macau...u just ahve to...and I folded pre-flop...every time it was a good fold lol...

no im from holland, europe...

folding kings is hard, i believe i did it just one time in my whole life.. and yes villain had AA...
but if you are like 100bb's deep there is no way you can fold kings.. either your on scared money, or super super nit  or your against an even nitter player who can only shoves with aces...  imo kk's vs aa's are mostly coolers..

i have no problem folding Queens...mid pos 3bets i 4bet  sb shoves   mid pos shoves.. easy fold to me...

july.. im sure i will be in hk during summer too....  looking forward to play and punt together?

[ Last edited by  Finn at 27-1-2010 11:48 ]

Seriously, talk is cheap.  

You can challenge whoever you like on the Internet to a 200k bet, but you know as well as I do that the bet will be impossible to track or enforce.  Who would hold the money that we both trust?  How can we be sure that the loser will agree to pay up?

This is of course, subject to me agreeing to spend my limited vacation time sitting there with somebody I don't know (you) counting my winnings / losses.

Let me reiterate once again, I'm NOT a poker professional, and this is just a hobby.

In my original post, I was only saying that the 10/20 HKD game at Grand Lisboa was juicy during the holidays and I did quite well.  I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand or accept.

I also didn't say that I'm confident I can do this all the time, but I sure didn't have too many problems during my stay, and I'm not the only one in that poker room with a mountain of chips on a daily basis.  All you have to do is look for those two guys I mentioned earlier, they rarely if ever lose from my observation.

I hope I don't sound overly defensive, but I find the idea of a sidebet propositioned over the Internet between two complete strangers to be ridiculous.  As I said, please play on my table, and let's test each other's skill level - a good challenge is always good.

Also, I really can't agree that most of the players buy in with 1,000 HKD at the Grand Lisboa.  Most players there are 2,000 to 3,000 HKD buy in, with most opting for max buy in.  If somebody buys in with 1,000 HKD, usually they are scared money or amateurs, and they get cleaned out and leave or reload.

Also, your main source of chips should not be coolers, ie. AA over KK or set over set, since that is both highly variable, and happens too rarely to rely upon.

To consistently win, you must be able to pump up the pop pre-flop with premium to nothing hands, and have good enough read/card skills to take the pot down without always going to showdown.  If you find that you always end up in showdown, or rely on those coolers to win, you'll find yourself with a hole in your pocket before long.  When I look at my stats, online, and I play similiarly offline, it would be something like 18% to see the flop, winning 65% of the time, with 75% of those wins never going to showdown.  I play reasonable hands, but I'll play the people not the cards, as you really want people to fold on the flop/turn.

Most importantly, you must be able to fold ANY hand at any time.  If you are the type that does this for instance, AA preflop, you pump up the pot, the flop is J T 9, two hearts, you bet the pot, he 3 bets, and you go all in .. well, you are probably one of those negative bankroll players.  These players are plentiful in the Grand Lisboa, and that's how you can win.

AA can be an easy fold post-flop, and I've folded KK pre-flop multiple times in different situations where the risk didn't justify the return. For me, a great tournament is not one in which I win, but where I'm rarely all-in, and when I am all-in, I am not behind when we flip over the cards.  That will ensure you win in the long run.

Stacking people is fun and great for the ego, but it should only be additive to your chips, not the main source thereof.

cause your the only guy i came acros in 3 years who can win 20k daily on 10/20  

200k for totall strangers is a bit too much

lets settle for 5k... ill pay u 5k in advance  one session...

ill  be in hk  around mid feb/march  and during summer

im really looking forward to see a recreation player who can plus 340k? in 17 days...


go pro dude