I just got back from CP, and I've come to a philosophical understanding of something that we as mongers need to realize:

When you treat WGs with kindness, it's the cruelest thing of all.

These girls come from all over China often from poor farming families. Their family believes they are working in factories in Dongguan (or they keep quiet), but they go to KTVs to make a lucrative (to them) wage for the 4 most productive years (19-23) in their lives. They are extremely lonely as the bonds they had formed in childhood have to be cut, and they are lucky to find one or two good friends in the time they are in CP. Many of the guys they meet earn in a month what the average Chinese in their part of the world saves in a decade and they appear more educated and well-travelled.

But during the several hours that they are with the guy, it's full asshole syndrome most of the time. The guy makes her drink, sing, forces himself on her. All these actions forces her to distance herself emotionally from the situation so she's not hurt. The next day everything repeats itself and if she does that for a couple of years, she can build a house and have a car for her family back in Shanxi.

However when you show any inclination of acting like a gentlemen, or kindness in any part - it's so extremely cruel. At first it's like she's seeing something strange for the first time. It's doesn't have to be large acts of kindness and it never involves money. Things like showing concern if she gets a little tipsy, thanking her, not being an asshole or feeling her up inappropriately. Then she starts opening up. She gives you her number or weixin, she calls you to hang out, she doesn't accept money from you anymore. On a subconscious level or even consciously, she wants to develop a real relationship with you. AND it's freaking easy as long as you fulfil the 3 conditions of being nice to her, someone that she'll be proud to show back home, not too far from her age or married. However, let's face it, we will in most cases never consider them potential marriage material due in part to the difficulty in societal perceptions and the incompatibility in life experiences. (if you can, you're definitely someone I would consider extremely magnanimous)

By being kind and courteous because your mom raised you to be a gentleman, and not being able to articulate to her that you aren't going to be anything more than a paying WG relationship is going to hurt. You think it's awesome getting freebies left right and center on demand - but the emotional investment is so great.

Report on CP has to be figured out because I'm still deciding whether some of my experiences are actually mongering experiences.

Whoa there fella!  I think we need to restore a certain level of discernment to your thoughts.  Just because one is considerate to a WG doesn't mean he also has to lead her on about his intentions.  Nor is the solution being an evil bastard.  Just learn to be up front and handle human interactions appropriately.

You can be nice and considerate to the girls, and in fact this is very helpful to them psychologically, without accepting freebies and without making them think you want to marry them.  If you can't navigate those waters gently then make up a story about being married.  Anything is better than acting like a jerk and treating them like dirt.

People deserve respect and consideration in all walks of life.

I think the job of a WG is like any other job that involves direct contact with customers. Being friendly with a WG is always a good thing; I really do not think a WG would try to get that deeply attached to a customer. They go through tons of people who are nice to them, what makes you think you're any special? LOL.

But I think it's cool to have some WG friends; same with any other occupations... lawyer, doctor, trainer, etc... So you can really be as nice, just keep it as friends and don't lead them on by BS-ing them.

I think this is wrong on many levels.  First you suggest their life is hellish, and then contend that it would be better for it to be a continuous hell rather than an intermittent one.

To say you shouldn't toy with someone's emotions is valid for everyone, not just WG's.

I was reading on a Pattaya forum of someone seeing a hot bargirl riding on the back of an electric wheelchair, huge smile on her face - off to a ST with the guy. Being nice validates your own humanity.

In that case both bargirl and PD may sometimes be depressed at their respective plights, but for that time they both elevated each other.

But maybe she shouldn't have offered the disabled guy a bj.  Better he suffer a continuous sexless life than have a brief respite.  He's always going to be disabled, the bj is cruelty.

[ Last edited by  yazoo at 20-5-2012 16:18 ]

it begs the question whether creating a contrast is cruelty?  

is raising someone's awareness of their own discomfort itself really an act of cruelty?  

My own view is that if I'm the one who gets her to wake up to the disrespect she's tolerating, that's a good thing.
If as a result of being treated as a human being, she starts to feel angry at rudeness, insensitivity, exploitation, or worse, I see that as a kindness.  
Yes, you can say that line of thinking leads to the conclusion that I'm causing her to feel worse, and to that extent I do choose to be cruel.  
In the same way I will not tell a fat person (s)he is thin, and I won't tell a stressed out person to push themselves harder.

Maybe I'm getting old ... and spending time in Asia is making me more Buddhist and Taoist ...

in any event I do believe what goes around comes around, and even if I'm taking advantage of the choices she's made to be available to me for my pleasure in exchange for what is (to me) a relatively little money, I want her to leave our interaction feeling better about herself.  

I won't lie to her about being available
I won't tell her I love her or that I want to make her my own
But if she invites me to spend time with her, and that's something I want to do, I will
and if I feel like giving a gift, or helping her out, I will
and when the time comes that she expects me to behave like a husband or committed boyfriend, I won't
I see it as managing limits, and setting an example of mutual respect

I see that sort of kindness also as an act of self-interest, since you can only truly respect yourself when you master respecting others ... and vice versa ...

'nuff said, really.  

PS on a practical note, it occurred to me that us Westerners can usefully remember Confucian values in relationship situations.  Pointing out that the judgement of our family and our employer would make it difficult for us both to be happy trying to make a life together, is a much better way to communicate the situation than to get tangled up in whether you love her or not.  
Just an angle to bear in mind.

I'm sure everyone who has mongered in China has experienced or has contemplated similar... Agreeing with DA, truth is best.

http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/viewthread.php?tid=13175

I'm not saying that it's hell being a WG. I am saying that it's a difficult, hard and lonely life that they made with their free will, a economical trade-off.

What I am also saying is that by being kind we're giving false hope even if you tell the truth i.e. you're attached, you definitely do not want a WG as a GF. This is because you might very well be the longest man in a while that has treated them nicely and they hope you will change your mind. Having hope quashed makes it harder for a person to grow hope again, and hope is really what makes us as humans want to live for the next day when times are tough.

I would really like for all punters to be nice and respectful so that it makes it ok for you to be acting in such a way and not stand out, but how can you convince other punters to act in such a way?

You have an interesting take on being nice is actually being cruel, better to be an ass and treat WGs like simply objects?

I don't know about, I think being who you are is fine and if that means being kind and potentially causing heartache because of emotional attachments, then it's unfortunate. But as long as you are upfront, honest and don't try to mislead a WG to get freebies or what not, then there's nothing to feel guilty about being a kind person. About her having her hopes crushed, the flip side is that if she does find kindness in punters it might make her less jaded about life and guys in general, that there are nice people out there, even if they are paying you for your short companionship. Would rather her know that there are good people out there and not all guys are assholes.

your point of view might be right in certain cases.
but doesn't apply to all WGs.

i've certainly seen WGs who are genuinely happy with their life.

Miss HJ
She's a KTV girl. Goes to work at most 3 days a week.
Only works when she needs money.
Sometimes, if she gets a generous first customer of the month who tip her enough to pay for her RMB 2,000 rent, then she sometimes choose not to work.
She travels around GuangDong with her like-minded friends.
She doesn't want to change because being a KTV girl gives her maximum freedom.

Miss JJ
She's a party animal. She loves to sing / drink / dance.
Being a KTV WG = Fun + Money, so hey... why stop?
But then started to play with drugs, so one day i suggested to her, maybe she need to get away from the KTV scene.
since she loves to play and is a very sociable person, i advise her to become a Tour Guide.
She spent RMB 900 on examinations, RMB 200 on textbooks, studied 1 year while still being a WG.
Now she's a tour-guide in Hunan.
And she never regretted her experience gained as a KTV WG.
You might be skeptical, but I believe her.

Miss ZS
Also a KTV girl, she gets upset easily, because she is paying for her b/f's expenses, and he still screws around.
I lend her a shoulder to cry on, and recommend some rich guys to her.
Finally she gets married, become a rich tai-tai, and even bought me a watch as appreciation.
She's a rare but possible case but ultimately becoming a happy person.

Miss YX
A sauna girl. Worked for only 2 years in a high-end sauna.
Earned RMB 1.2 million in these 2 years.
Now a proud owner of a cement factory in Zhang-Jia-Jie, earning enough to support her family of 8.
She never regretted her time in the sauna.
It was really tough to shower and take bath 6-10 times a day.
but thinking back, she felt it is worth it.

Miss NY
Another party animal. Worked in KTV.
But she loves Cp so much, she doesn't want to leave.
Her life-long ambition is to be a GM of a KTV.
She just became a Mama-san, one step closer to her dreams.
I have never seen a girl as happy / cheerful as her.

I can give more examples..
but you get my point, i believe there are many happy WGs out there.

[ Last edited by  kaka at 21-5-2012 12:40 ]

I get what you are saying, but I think that you are over-estimating the proportion of asshole punters.  I think that most of us are pretty decent.

And from the interactions with WG's that I've had, when I've asked about their clientèle, they tell me that on the whole punters are nice to them - although they do have to put up with a few abusive *&%&!'s from time to time.

Maybe punter's in China are worse - I don't know.  But it seems to me that if the objective is to smooth out the contrasts, to leave WG's, in the words of Dire Straits, 'comfortably numb', then we should not be urging the masses to be less nice, but trying our best to get rid of the worst behaviour.

Don't underestimate the power of peer pressure - this board helps a lot.  Every once in a while someone comes on here and describes some behaviour that we all consider to be disrespectful or abusive.  They get slammed, and sometimes shunned.  That is a powerful educational message.

But going back to your first post - it seems that you are struggling with something more than just a nice session.  Relationships - even friendships - with WG are tough to navigate, and I think DArtagnan's excellent advice is spot on.  It is all about defining boundaries and limits.  It is advice that I will have to follow myself, as I've found a WG travel buddy for part of my vacation.  Playing with fire is such fun...

Mr Fast,

I too have been in your shoes where you feel bad for the girl's situation. But you must be absolutely clear and understand that there's a difference between being courteous and kind, versus pushing a girl's buttons and treating them overly nice to the point that they start falling for you.

I believe that treating a girl with respect or courtesy does not make the girl fall madly in love with you. However, if you start treating them overly nice, by buying their vacation fines, taking them to Shenzhen, wine and dine them and be their prince in shining armor and also saying all of these words about how you really like her and want something more etc, then that is crossing the line.

Your situation with girls falling for you just because you are courteous and kind is something that happens 10 years ago in CP. In today's CP girls have woken up. They give you their phone number and Weixin because you probably tip better and/or treat them well so they want you to be a returning customer. Hey, why not keep good customers close to you right? Sometimes when we over-read their actions you tend to over think. Many of these girls all have boyfriends that you don't know about. Some even have sponsors, multiple sponsors, and still out there to play the game and lure in clients who pay them good money.

In today's CP girls don't simply fall for you so easily unless you are overly nice and say and do things that really touch their hearts. And if you do those things to touch their hearts then you are pushing their buttons and that would be wrong.

Just another one of my two renminbi on this issue

AsnDragon-- I treat girls nice how come I don't get Wexin contacts and phone numbers? I always have to ask for them, and sometimes they give me fake QQ numbers or QQ numbers that need  a password? Crap! just my luck!

Take for example this most recent example:

I go to Mayflower last week Thursday, get a 7ish spinner. Treat her with decorum and respect and take her back. All the while I could sense that she's nervous as she's unusually chatty. I look at her and ask her whether she's still alright to proceed, if not she can go. She calms down and we hit the sack.

The next day she asks me whether she can hang out with me, I say no. She asks again saying that I don't have to pay or anything, I say "no, go to work". I'm back in Singapore and she still QQs me constantly and gets upset when I don't reply. I have to ignore her completely I guess - even short curt answers are an invitation for her to chat some more.

I think that one action of asking her to leave if she's uncomfortable really "pushed" a button, but really I don't like doing it if the girl is reluctant so what could I have said?

Be truthful my friend.

Are you good looking and young?

How much did you tip her for overnight?

Are you humorous and funny?

Are you good in bed?

Was she new to the KTV scene?

Now all these factors contribute to a girl liking you. In addition sometimes girls just like you! They have no reason or explanation they just like you! Most people don't believe love at first sight but there is such thing has infatuation at first sight!

So there you go! Now you obvious like her to a certain point or else you would not add her QQ or given your QQ to her right? So you must have done something to lead her on. Perhaps without you knowing it. You could block her on QQ if you like, but you do chat with her cause she does interest you or you are keeping her as a backup when you go back to CP next right?

So regardless, even if u didn't do anything it could just be you had the qualities she liked

BTW Singaporean younger guys are in hot demand in CP these days. Just to let you know girls love ya guys!

Sorry.  It was Pink Floyd...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfortably_Numb   Also, see...  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQWszrZHBPI

Have fun, CGP

Bro, your arguement could be used (incorrectly) in ANY situation in life.  Better to have never been loved by a gal than to have felt love and lost it?  Better to have never tasted a great steak then to miss it forever-after? This is no life I want to live.

I see it exactly the opposite -- if I can bring a bit of joy into her life than wonderful.  Her smile makes me smile.  I never lie about anything with my WG romances -- but even though we know the deal sometimes heartache does rear its head.  And not just with her, but me to.  There are gals I miss and gals I've lost sleep over.  There are gals that moved back home years ago that I still email back'n'forth with.  Why?  Well, we like each other.   And yeah, sometimes tears are shed.  Do I wish I never met them?  No.  Do they wish they never met me?  No.  
Small, brief joys are all some people get in life. Enjoy them - and pass them out freely as often as you can.

I stand corrected.  Dire Straits was "Money for Nothin' and your chicks for free".  Which, interestingly, is kind of what we're talking about.

Wander, agree totally.  Emotion is what separates us from machines.  I'd rather feel like my heart had been crushed than feel empty.  Just not too too often.  It can be exhausting.

I'm going to be controversial and say I understand where the OP is coming from

BUT

I think the danger here is that this kind of attitude is dangerously close to the 'all WG's are forced' perspective etc. (through circumstance of whatever) and ignores that this, in many cases, is a career choice made by women who are far smarter than such an opinion gives credit for (or allows to be considered possible!).

I think that being kind is a behavior that everyone in this world should share - the world would be a better place if we were.

The main issue I have with this view is that the woman knows the rules, they know they are being paid for their time and affections and as long as noone is misled (same goes with civvie ladies and ONS's, affairs etc.) there should not be problems. The danger with 'kindness being cruel' is when the kindness is used to build a scenario where the lady might think that you're a knight in shining armor/allow herself to be controlled to an extent when the punter has no intention of anything more than the basic.

Being kind and respectful is never a bad thing, being kind to hide some suspicious motive probably is.

As a noob, firstly i apologise for putting my LB in the the line of fire...

Although, i do understand the opening point of view i find it difficult to believe that being nice is actually being cruel. Since the notion of being kind is to be, as described by dictionary.com, 'indulgent, considerate, or helpful; humane' which is simply holding a respectful disposition in any situation one comes across whilst interacting with others...

Be it a WG, Coffee Barrista, Relative, Monger, etc etc... Each deserves to be treated in kind.. Whilst the notion of being kind is actually cruel in CP to some WG's, i actually believe that this comment is true to some extent. Yet, the one notion that appears to have been overlooked is the implied notion of the person being kind.

If the ulterior motive is to be kind to receive a 'freebie' or to get a good story to post for 'us' (lol i used us as a noob, hope seniors dont mind) then YOU ARE SPOT ON that this is cruel as the intent is so blatantly to rub the WG's nose into what she can never have. This is an atrocious act and i would agree with you if this is the point.

Again, it is all based on the evil within the person using the kindness. As with serial killers (serious, am i making that link???), they too have the ability to be kind, to be humane and to live a life in a normal social environment although they too have very twisted intentions to their actions and decide to torment/harm others with their actions.. yet they consciously do this... Point being, Mongers can also decide to apply their kindness for gratuities far and beyond what is deserving like dangling the proverbial carrot in front of the horse/donkey - never allowing it to obtain what it has been shown or seen... SHIT i am rambling.. time to go..

As a relatively sincere individual, i will always treat anyone i interact with (including WG's) with respect and a sincere belief that our positive interaction will have some learning curve for both parties and that we can both grow from the experience. Just cos i pat them on the ass (WG especially) as i leave or buy them a drink as i leave the bar, doesnt mean i want a freebie or want a wife or want anything untoward....

In saying all this,,,, great thread.. interesting insight into all who have posted...

Hope you peeps didnt mind my contribution.. if you could make sense of it...

MD

OP, are you suggesting we should all be physically and mentally abusing these girls then?

And, would you actually be proud of yourself after doing that?

I think the OP is referring to unintentionally attracting the WG without really doing anything. He re-analyzes why this WG is falling head over heels for him when he didn't do anything. He then re-evaluates what he did that made this WG like him so much and he is thinking it is because he was being courteous and polite to her. That is why he brings up his point of view.

But in reality there are many factors that play to this situation. As I've stated, it could be that the girl finds him physically attractive, or he reminds her of her first love, or simply her just likes him because he is her type of guy. It's just being polite that gets the girls to like you, it's a combination of many factors!

Thus, I think everyone is missing the point. OP is just describing that we should not play with WG emotions or try to attract them if we do not plan on genuinely carrying on a relationship with them, that leading them on is cruel.

Just my two renminbi on this issue.