I believe your understanding of integrity is different to mine but I'm not here to go through this ...

The ONLY time when I had a problem with you was when you first started to participate in this forum and the attack you made on the mods on Boxing Day !
subsequent to our meeting and things cooling down everything went to normal ... I have never questioned your honesty in this forum and knowing you I know I never will !
but do I question your judgement, especially when you're emotions are involved ...

Please do not believe that I'm in a corner and I can't back down, whatever I do in this forum I always give it time to see if it works, and make necessary changes when they don't ... its never been a matter of 'face' for me !  But whatever I do, I do it after many consultations and I do it because there is good reason to ...

You have told me many times in the past that you never will take any crap from anyone ... now you're telling me again, OK ... so ?

You assert that I've wronged the participants in this thread ... please convince me of such as I don't see it this way

A poll doesn't tell us anything, a discussion is more appropriate.

edit


we'll probably never know now as the last 2 pages of debate would have put everyone off !

[ Last edited by  twiceAweek at 22-6-2012 21:12 ]

Boxing Day?  
That is  2-1/2 years ago and you still remember!!
But you as well as I know that there ARE also others who also remember....but who, unlike you,  do always still "zero in" on me/keep the grudge. Like I said, NOT every Mod/Senior is like you.

And thus my reason for advising OTHERS not to get involved in this matter.

As far as if "it works" or not - hell, The ICT can of course still merrily roll along - especially when I know that there are so many great members here who are very much appreciative of the the whole atmosphere and etho of this thread - and will keep it going JUST IN REPONSE TO YOUR CHALLENGE. That is how much faith and trust I have about participants of the ICT - but the MAIN QUESTION/CONCERN is - is this what you, I or anybody else want??  That it just be a place to shoot the breeze, trade jokes, pictures etc.

And the short answer is NO - the ICT's MAIN purpose is to encourage newbies/newer members to tentatively dip their toes in the water, to experience for themselves the camaraderie that we DO HAVE on this thread. And lets get real - is any newbie gonna take the trouble to post if they know that they ain't gonna get any post credits? That we do so happen have such banter and fun and games is only incidental to the etho of the thread - but  that what is its strongest suit is in its ability/be a nice place to welcome and acclimatize newbies.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 22-6-2012 22:00 ]

BINGO!

Yes - I KNOW that the last 5 pages - NOT just the last 2 pages - had been too damn heavy!!
But that there ARE guys still posting....and I've even just received another PM on ISG again!!

Come on Twice - you can easily see how fond a lot of guys are of the ICT.
They KNOW they're treading on thin ice just by posting and yet, here they still are.  That must tell you something.

But again let me emphasize - the main usefulness of the ICT is NOT for these guys who ARE committed/fond of the ICT.  Yes, they are a very VERY important component of the thread, for they are the one who provides the welcoming atmosphere - but you don't allow credit, why would a newbie participate.  Hell they don't even know what its all about!!

SEAJ

BTW - I thought that you had 100% confirmed on the board in the past that you Mods are NOT privy to the contents of PM's on this forum.  Or are they still worried about Admin?  Is Admin privy to our PM's?

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 22-6-2012 21:44 ]

If people respond to my challange then good for them and the thread !

Do you remember I told you last week that this thread wouldn't last without your active participation ?
do you also remember I said this thread under its new format for the time being ?

like I told you before, you are your own worst enemy !

Not really interested in the drama but can anyone tell me what SSP means? Posting on this thread doesn't affect my karma so this is a good place to ask. I searched on http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/viewthread.php?tid=2485 but it isn't listed there, and I got 3 pages of results searching on these forums and Google isn't being helpful.

Ok - that is YOUR opinion - which I happen to not agree with in this matter.

I keep quiet and you get the"result" of your experiment - and what?

You see, the "challenge" to begin with is totally faulty - for it's a challenge for us guys to keep it going....and you will then be "comfortable" in reinstating our rights.
Yeah, great, dandy - but it still will NOT validate our ICT as being the ALL ENCOMPASSING, WELCOMING place that it is for ALL - and especially for newbies.
And that you are ONLY gonna let us continue as a sufferance.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 22-6-2012 21:41 ]

Tell me bro - for somebody who's quite a new member, you seem to know quite a bit about what's happening on this forum.
How's that?

and BTW, I see that you've even already got yourself involved in a bit of controversy!
You'll have a lot of fun on our boards me-thinks!
LOL

SEAJ
And congratulations/Welcome to you as our newest "Musky Member"  
Great going!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 22-6-2012 22:02 ]

Hey Sean, thanks for the welcoming k's when I first arrived here. The drama is crazy and the first thing I learned about drama in life is to stay away from it and only speak when needed.

Indeed I am new with a bit of pre-knowledge about this site, that's because I was reading an article by a local English magazine online who tried to interview your members here - but was refused. The magazine eventually interviewed a few WGs in relation to 141 and from what they gathered, 141 was very real and the way this website handled that bit of media attention was correct - from my point of view anyway. It showed that this place understands that no publicity is good publicity but the main thing that article did for me was - confirming my doubts whether this website is genuine or a sham. My register date is over a year ago - it was from that article (i won't mention the name of the magazine here) that I - along with other people and expats - learned of the English 141 existence.

In a way, a little publicity is good publicity I guess? Anyway my work is related to... let's just say "information". That'll be vague enough for anyone to try and guess who I am (yeah I'm paranoid) so either I have a lot of time to visit this website, or I have no time to visit at all.

And thank you - I finally made it to Musky Member. I only punt once a month I guess? I'm in my mid 20s and I have girlfriends but I barely get paid in my entry level job, but the mongering scene is too.... addictive and exciting in a way that I believe only mongerers like you all can understand. I don't really need to justify my reasons of punting when I'm fully capable of meeting women in clubs. The thrill from punting is just - forbidden apple. That sounded really lame but yeah...

Anyway hope to get a better salary so I can afford more punting!

Guys on the ICT have been great, welcoming and accommodating to all comers - truly a great bunch of guys just keeping the spirit of the forum UP!

Then Goose and his Go4 zeroes in on me - time again -  JUST to cause the controversy which will allow them to:
1. Cause strife on our board
2. Allow them to publicize their own website or whatever
3. With the strife they themselves caused, try to convince us that this is really NOT a forum worth participating in...and just to go over to their site.

They then go on and on about how the ICT is a karma whoring/karma swapping thread and you....welll... you, by imposing your restrictions on the ICT just went along with this premise....and thus you have made yourself judge and jury that ALL participants of the ICT had indeed been karma whoring/swapping. That is not only wrong, its actually truly incredible/ridiculous/a TRAVESTY.

Like I said, if whatever it is that I had done - (and I am NOT defending myself, and in fact I had fully acknowledged and clearly spelled out my own transgressions in my post #3651 on page 183 of this thread) warrants it, go right ahead and do whatever it is you think necessary TO ME. I am NOT gonna bitch about it.  

But for you to also take it out on ALL THE PARTICIPANTS of the ICT is just totally wrong, unwarranted and now requires your proper introspection AND corrective action.

SEAJ
I gotta do this - can you understand that?

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 22-6-2012 23:09 ]

As a non HK'er, I would say that about half of my K's have come the report sections and the other half from mongers lounge - especially ICT.  Reports to ROTW do not generate a lot of K.  I would not be the participant i am today (and LL) without the K I earned in ICT.

Is that a bad thing?

RA is to protect the privacy of WG's (and other bro's) by preventing users who have just signed up from viewing pics.  You have to prove yourself as a punter.  Outside of this, I think the value diminishes.

There's a famous psychological experiment, where they took random participants and gave them jail guard uniforms, or inmate uniforms.  Eventually the 'guards' started pushing around the 'inmates'.  Are users striving for higher levels, just so they can get the more intimidating 'guards' uniforms?

I think the middle ground would be to continue to have no posting credits.  That way we can banter away without upsetting the crusty old men who are obviously a bit bitter about us.  But I would still want to be able to reward a contributing post with K.

i probably shouldn't be stepping in here, but i've never been known for sensible behavior. let's say i wanted to see an extra avatar between The Finger and The Dick, ah ha ha!

Rodney King said: "can't we all get along?" maybe the kerfuffle has gone past that point, but i say: "can't we all agree WE LIKE TITS??"

OK, we agree on something. we won't agree on everything. but on the subject of the ICT, i've got a couple of points to make and then i'll shut up.

right in the middle of the last few pages of flame/reflame, post #4109 from asurada00 is fascinating reading. it explains why he joined the forum, his situation, what appeals to him, his constraints, and introduces him to the forum.

without the ICT, i can't say exactly where such a post should be on this forum. this may be an indication that the ICT does have a place here.

another thing we can agree on, besides liking tits, is that a continuing thread should be appealing to a number of individuals, to create a dialog--sometimes light-hearted, but always available for someone like asurada00 to post something about himself.

but if it's a back-and-forth between a couple of senior guys, going on for pages...i think that turns people off. gents like d'Artagnan, who posts sparsely and is articulate, likely won't jump into a firefight of this nature. this thread loses its attraction under such circumstances--while they're rare, many people won't check back ten pages to see if it's all flame-on.

i'm not taking sides. i'll go no further than to suggest that NEITHER of the two combatants are 100% right, and BOTH of them should breathe/relax and consider the bigger picture. i don't know if this advice will be blowtorched to ash, but this i believe:

FLAME-WARS DO NOTHING BUT ALIENATE POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTORS.

that's all. thanks for reading. and now, a pair of TITS.
[attach]61503[/attach]

JtB

PS: yazoo also contributes a great point above.

[ Last edited by  JackTheBat at 22-6-2012 23:54 ]

Thanks for your input - I really do have to tip my hat that you are still ready and willing to put forth your POV.

But I really am not prepared to accept ANY compromise as it means that we acknowledge that all of us had done something wrong on the ICT.  

I am not able to compromise when its a matter of integrity - and as far as I'm concerned, I was the only one who had granted the automatic K grant in the past (and had already stopped).

Yes, SEAJ had been wrong, I have been censured, and I AM READY AND WILLING TO TAKE FURTHER CENSURE AND EVEN BEING BANNED IF NEED BE - but its totally wrong for the whole ICT to be put on ANY restrictions on the premise that the rest of you guys had also been doing something wrong.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 23-6-2012 00:13 ]

Thanks for your always sensible POV and appeals - but I would like you and others here to understand that this is NOT just a run-of-the-mill flame war but something which I insist needs to be discussed properly.

MY POV is very simple - SEAJ did wrong by granting auto K's - and even if I had never even been advised directly by any mods that this must stop AND had unilaterally already decided to stop doing so a month and half ago - OK, I'm willing and ready to take the rap and whatever censure/punishment/further actions etc.

What I am NOT prepared to accept is this inference (by the restrictions now put on the ICT thread) that the rest of you guys had also done wrong. As far as I'm concerned - AND I would think any sensible, impartial and truly wise observer would agree - you guys have NOT done anything wrong and thus I gotta to do this.

No choice for me.

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 23-6-2012 00:24 ]

Thanks for the replies and +a's. Is there a rule somewhere that doesn't allow a user to give out k's randomly - or can I give out k's to posts not related to mongering?

Since i'm posting, i might as well give my view on the matter.... I've posted in the ICT only twice or so because I had no idea what the conversation was going on about and I don't like to be seen as a 'karma' whore. I try very hard not to spam/flood the forums with useless posts - when I post I try to contribute, even though my motivation comes from wanting k's.

Around 30% of my karma comes from my 3 reports (where one has gone to hell and also probably getting me punished). The majority of the k's comes from conversations in threads / whoring myself in the mongering section over daily participation in the forums in the span of 6+ weeks . If I was to solely rely on the report section, it'd probably take me 10+ quality reports with decent pictures to make it to MM.

I'm a casual monger, maybe at best once a month yet I love these forums. Sometimes I don't manage to get a picture and thus - I don't bother writing a long report since reports without pics usually just grants you a couple of k's.

Is it frowned upon to post a lot even though you don't have a lot of reports? I mean I'm MM with only 3 reports - even I myself feel odd about it.

Rant: Not that this would be taken account from a new member, but I would suggest to see more k's being given out by members... If someone writes a good post, you see people rewarding them a few k's sometimes, sometimes none. If it's "encouraged" to reward "good" posts with more k's, I personally would post less, but make better posts.

Of course if it is the community's traditional intention to make k's incredibly hard to obtain for the "well-being of WGs", then trash my suggestion.

[ Last edited by  asurada00 at 23-6-2012 00:34 ]

Thanks for your great observation and input.

I'm glad you are honest and pointed out that you do (of course) want to get posting credit when posting - thus my assertion that this thread should go back to the credit accruing Monger's lounge - for otherwise, newbies/newer members like you would be reluctant to ...waste your time posting here.

I'm also glad to see you write that you do feel encouraged when you do receive K awards - it is after all a motivation tool - and that it is quite in order to be receiving such K's iof one writes up a sensible, informative, caring/sharing, contributing post and NOT just when you write up a report.

And your statement about you not liking to be seen as a karma whore - well, that is part of the reason why I had unilaterally decided 1-1/2 month ago to stop giving automatic K awards to posters on here. As I at that time reasoned that such practice could back-fire ESPECIALLY when it concerns sensible members like you - who knows very well he's not deserving of the additional K point just for posting on here.

And oh - on your question about granting K's to others - you are free to grant your K at your own discretion anywhere, anytime - and the ONLY RESTRICTION against granting K is on the Member's fight club and this thread as of a week ago.

thanks
SEAJ

OK, i'll respond to SEAJ but i'm NOT taking sides. i still think both parties can learn from each other. no one's painted into a corner here, it IS possible to get along.

this may sound weird, but i never noticed any auto-Ks here or anywhere else on this forum. SEAJ says he stopped the practice, i'm not sure it's a good idea to have such a mechanism. the intentions may be good, but IMHO Ks shd always be given by someone to another bro as appreciation for something they post. nothing wrong with granting As, just a "hi there, someone read yr post, here's a link where we share what we've learned from posting ourselves..." makes sense?

any thread that has few rules will have some goofy posts. i'm guilty of silliness, OK, hang me in manacles and have Maria Sharapova paddle my ass with a tennis racket. when my beta-male boss is bleating about his precious numbers, and my brain threatens to boil over, YES, i may write some goofball rant about a pic of some wild rasta wearing a Hawaiian shirt with his hair hanging on the ground. shd someone give me K-points for that? i dunno!! are there rules governing this: "only 1 K is suggested for inane rasta-rants motivated by prevention of job-driven insanity"? i dunno!!

it is a bit Kafkaesque. i like the option of being goofball. i also like punting, reporting and posting pix if applicable. that's more work, but i like to do it. the Ks are nice. but as Tom Sizemore's character said in Michael Mann's HEAT (1995): "You know me, Neal, I'm in it for the juice." getting feedback that makes me laugh out loud, and sometimes sparks more responses, dialog, great fun. i'm in it for the fun. so of course i like the idea of an ICT.

so...back to u guys--but is it possible for both of you to take a step back, examine yr positions and see if there's another interpretation, more options? when u reach an impasse...i mean, look at Greece. they were having probs and couldn't form a govt. ripple-effects, fringe-politicians, people saying "bring back the drachma"...u still have ppl in Russia saying things were better in Stalin. if we DON'T at least try to get along, things can fly apart in a metal shitstorm. so Greece finally got it, saw what COULD happen, now they've got a govt, still problems but when is life perfect? they REALLY don't want to bring back the drachma. OK, rant over, but we do agree on some things (no one's wildly objected to tits yet), so maybe we can get along.

just my two cents, but i note that others ARE posting on this board and the Idle Chat continues. and this is good.

JtB

Ok - useful POV as usual but please let me emphasize - that as far as I'm concerned, the MAIN REASON for the ICT is to Welcome newbies/newer members - to make them feel this welcome, get acclimatized, get a bit of guidance as to proper behaviour AND encouragement to go forth and go to other parts of the forum -  especially to come up with their own report.

It is NOT just for BS - not at all - but it just happens to be and IS a place where BS is part and parcel of the atmosphere that we all had created.

Please read asurada00's post #4115 above - which is perfectly in line with what I am saying about newer members and what the ICT really NEED to provide for such newer members. The ICT needs to be post crediting for otherwise, these newer guys will NOT participate and the ICT will then just be a useless BS thread amongst seniors talking about .... BS.  And I for one am not gonna be enthused about just BS'ing for no purpose. We've already got too many BS threads - way too many on the monger's lounge, serving no purpose except BS and not benefiting the forum at all. And oh, of course accruing posting credits.

We also need to still have the ability to award K's for ANYBODY who do share and care - as amply demonstrated by DevilGodSpeed and AsnDragon's translation help. Otherwise, why would anybody share and care - just to BS?  Come on, yes, once, twice - but if such selfless acts keeps on NOT being acknowledged and rewarded - you really think anybody is gonna still share and care?
Especially if doing such sharing and caring in other parts of the forum will not only for sure get you posting credit, but most probably be also amply rewarded by K awards from others

Twice keep the restrictions on the ICT as it is, he may as well remove it right now, coz its gonna evolve very rapidly into a totally useless BS thread anyway.

SEAJ


Yes, agree as this is definitely not just idle chat is it?
Twice, do you want to remove all posts onwards from your pronouncement #3985 on page 200 to another separate thread?

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 23-6-2012 02:06 ]

NOW I get it....the reason for all these new restrictions on the ICT.
The REAL reason!!

check it out yourself!
check out the "top Threads" listing in "statistics"

Notice where the ICT thread is at  - as far as "top viewed" is concerned?
Yup, just 400 or so views behind TwiceAweeks' "SAUNAS - What you really want to know"

THAT...is the reason!!
We is gonna zoom past HIS thread soon!

YUP - admit it Twice!!
Cain't stand it can you???
ADMIT IT!! Muahahaha!!

LMAO!!

SEAJ

Ps edit
And here's a WTFism - if you don't think we on the ICT had done no wrong - then why is it that you are imposing sanctions on us.
And please do not just reply as usual that I don't know all the background and all the implications etc - yes I DON"T KNOW, and this is the reason I AM ASKING YOU THIS QUESTION.

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 23-6-2012 01:53 ]

Brothers, as you know I am very new to this forum. it's only been about less than 3 months since I joined 141. But i really wanted to see if we can all find a middle ground on all of this. Personally, I have stated my opinions before on ICT.

1. In ICT, we mostly talk about sex and monger. So to be put in Veggie Cafe where this is suppose to be about NON mongering activities does not make sense.
2. Ever since ICT got taken to Veggie Cafe, nobody goes to Mongers lounge all that much anymore. the view participation as dropped significantly. As I've stated, ICT just takes individual threads and puts it into an easier to access thread which involved more participation.
3. Personally, ICT should be put back where people get posting credits on Monger Lounge, but if you want to take away the K-whoring, then we can stop only on mongers lounge. Heck, when Devilsgodspeed gave me 2 Ks for translating a whole entire Tang Dynasty Poem, SEAJ went to deduct 2K's off of me, as a respect to you. And I don't mind because it's my respect to you as well TwiceAweek. SEAJ really has been the police on ICT to make sure that things are complying with your wishes.
4. THere really is no difference between someone posting useless questions or one liners on new threads on Mongers lounge and getting posting credits, as opposed to getting posting credits on ICT when it was on mongers lounge. If SEAJ has compromised in NOT giving K's out, then there would no violation of K whoring.

The Business side of things:

How I see it from all angles is this. This forum, whether it be the CHinese side or English side is more than just sharing and building a community based upon different mongering experiences. This website exists because it's primary revenue stream is to sell advertisement revenues for the girls on 141, whether it be China, HK, Thailand or Taiwan or Macau. So although K's are discouraged, it is also necessary as well. Newbies need to post reports up to get K's and post more useful information as well to get K's. The ultimate goal is to be ableto see the naked pictures of WG. Once they see their real pics they will go and see the 141 girls- thus business is good for 141 and the WG and their organization, and everyone is happy.141 gets advertising revenues stream, WG and their pimps get money, mongers get their sex. This is a symbiotic relationship is not just in HK, but also in the Saunas in China as well. I"m sure Meibao Sauna and other saunas in China would be happy to know that they found out about them on 141 and will still continue to go pay for advertisement fee on 141.

But although Karma whoring is discouraged, most guys are striving for a higher RA so that we can all be active customers of 141 establishments. Whether you make it harder or easier does not matter, because whether brothers are in HK, CHina or elsewhere, they came onto this site because they will one day visit HK or China or Macau or Asia mongering establishments and try out the girls with real pics that they see are good looking on the threads when they have a high RA.

The Community Side of things:

141 on the English side has evolved to be more than just an informative site on 141 and some saunas elsewhere. it's more international, and you get reports from people all over the world, North America, Europe, Asia, South America etc. WE build upon 141 as a community, we strive to help each other (whether newbie or seniors) to form a more cohesiveand inviting environment. Sure, there are the sarcastic and smart asses out there, but that does add to the flavor of this forum. a combination of so many different personalities and experiences coming together to share and really be friends. That is unique. ICT has that same passion within the community that had been built up throughout those 200+ pages. I see people trying to help out, i certain try to help out people on ICT. Most people are more willing to post on ICT with a one liner questions, than create a whole thread to post a silly question. ICT participants gladly answer the questions quickly and effectively. starting a new thread on mongers lounge can take days to get an answer from someone. So ICT does have it's advantages. K whoring can be given to anyone at anytime. Unless there are perameters set within 141 where people aren't allowed to give a certain amount of K's to a certain person per day. But K whoring can be given in any thread- nookie newbie, mongers lounge, Mainland China etc...

SEAJ may have been a trouble maker in the past and he may have said something that rubbed all the mods the wrong way, but ICT really has nothing to do with it.

My opinion is, put ICT back on Mongers lounge, allow all the K's that people want to give, but just keep SEAJ in check. Heck, if you need help Twice, i'll keep him in check as well, taking care of a young kid like him is Nooooo problem for me!

Lastly, I would like to thank Twice and the mods for always trying to be very impartial and also for their hard-work. viewing 75,000 pages as a Mod is no easy task, it's a full time job. So i am sure that a majority of the brothers on 141 would agree that ICT should be back on Mongers lounge, as we talk about sex all the time and that does not belong on veggie cafe where it is NON sex material. We, including myself, who are involved in ICT will try to post more useful information and be more discerning on giving out K's to people.

thanks for reading

I think i talk too much

ASnDragon