jumping in between the front-lines, somewhat foolishly ...


an evaluation which I also share, as a participant who is not a mod and is not part of their decision-making!


which I think is precisely the point: it's YOUR conviction, which is not shared by everybody (honestly myself included).  Nothing wrong with following your conviction, except that if you choose not to moderate your conviction by taking into account the convictions of others, you should expect a reaction.  Common sense, I hope.  

I don't believe anyone reading this would say quantity is more important than quality.  

Even more rashly nailing my own colours to the wall: I do see value in your Idle Chat thread, even though I myself hardly ever read it and even more rarely participate.  I see people having fun and bantering in a way they don't elsewhere, and those page-views are DEFINITELY in the best interest even of the Admin!!

BUT I do also see that the K system has been structured to reward a particular sort of participation: writing reports that reward other bros who write reports.  Which makes it reasonable that other forms of participation, which might make it possible to accumulate Read Access without actually doing what the majority of the seniors (and mods, and Admin) want to see, should be ring-fenced.  

At the end of the day, participation is its own reward

and my feeling is the opportunity to help others is more important than our own ego

which - I acknowledge - is much easier to say AFTER having done the hard work to achieve full RA, than it is while working up the ladder

Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this post are those of its author, and do not represent the opinions or directives of the moderators or owners of the site!

First off – why this pathetic (sorry, but this really struck me!) need to put up such a disclaimer?  Do you have such little faith in your OPINION as to need to put such a disclaimer?  Especially strange since you are usually one with so many opinions.

And about MY conviction - I of course do not expect it to be shared by everybody, but first thing I want to point out is that GREAT/MOMENTOUS change usually comes about from ONE individual who has the conviction and purity of heart to go against popular consensus/orthodox thinking; secondly, sex141 IS a forum and a forum invites discussion and different POV’s.

Reaction? Of course expected, but improper usage of powers to actualize one’s own opinion singularly  –  whether granted (as in the case of our mods) or inherent ie. Admin’s as he IS the owner of the site – will eventually result in just Admin talking to himself. Oh OK, I exaggerate, but I think you got the drift! Beware those who only listen to himself and is incapable of considering all other’s opinion and counsel.

Ok at this point you can cleverly turn my last sentence to your own purposes – stating that this is precisely what SEAN is guilty of – but is it? I have never used ANY powers (I ain’t got none anyways!) to “back up” my opinion, but I just do go ahead and express and express strongly whatever it is that I feel strongly about. My opinion, my conviction! And if my counter-party also has the conviction and purity of heart, he will…no, he should come back with his own retort.  This is what a forum is all about!

I must thank you for your sort of “endorsement” of the idle chat thread – as many exemptions as you’ve  seen fit to accompany it with! But again, why the need to “disclaim?”  Strange and not in your usual character here! Or is it that you realize that you’d better cover your balls about this (Kiss of death on this forum to back SEAJ. LOL!), whilst in the past/other parts you know you didn’t really need to tread carefully on this forum - as you ARE a very old and highly rated senior already.  Who the hell would dare to challenge the mayor??! LMAO!

The Idle Chat Thread (ICT) is NOT, in the final analysis, designed for guys like you; it’s more to help out ANYBODY WHO NEEDS a bit of a push, a bit of encouragement, an assurance that he’s  not going to make a fool of himself in a board with such forceful characters as SEAJ and DArtagnan (wink wink… Muahaha!!) present.  

But hey – actually anybody and everybody is welcome to join in! And in fact, I do appreciate those Seniors who do make an effort to participate and show that they care and will do whatever it is to help others along….and quite dismayed that TOO MANY OTHER SENIORS/MODS just do not seem to care if the newer members here sink or swim. Instead, they are always just too ready and eager to rebuke newer members without giving ANY guidance, never mind encouragement.

Yes, perhaps this is correct “….it reasonable that other forms of participation, which might make it possible to accumulate Read Access without actually doing what the majority of the seniors (and mods, and Admin) want to see, should be ring-fenced….” And ring fencing is what we on the Idle chat thread had been very good at doing; we self-police ourselves against any of the abuse that sometimes happens in other parts of the forum, we encourage guys to go ahead and write up reports/threads when they start something interesting on the ICT, we guide each other on how to conduct ourselves on other parts of the forum, AND I HAVE stopped the automatic granting of K’s for each post on the ICL.

What more does Admin want…that is not just mean-spirited AND petty minded?

Yea, I very much want to have the Idle Chat thread to continue as it was prior to this. IMHO – yeah my very humble but STRONG opinion – these new restrictions are truly misguided/misplaced attempt at righting something which had not been wrong in the first place….the Idle Chat Thread. You want to extract your pound of flesh for the SUPPOSED transgressions of SEAJ, go ahead and do so with SEAJ – but not from others who’ve posted up the great majority of the 4,000 posts on the ICT

Any of you – including and especially Admin and you mods – have YOUR own conviction and opinion as to why you think the ICT is bad – please come back on and discuss it RATIONALLY and properly instead of taking this approach UNILATERALLY…..PLEASE!!!

Thank you
SEAJ

So now we can serialize all our posts here without someone breathing down our necks!


PS: Sorry SEAJ, wasn't meant to be patronizing...it' just a joke...

[ Last edited by  Tuffbod at 14-6-2012 18:57 ]

Arrggghhh...Dart's got the post #4001... that's the number of my apartment!

.....it ain't gonna be as much fun docking SEAJ 2400 points if it don't result in him being demoted from Godfather of Hole back to Master Monger!

Hell....let him argue away on the ICT whilst gaining the 63 points he needs to get up to GOH....and then dock him that 2,400 points to drag him back down!

That'll serve him right!!  
LOL!

SEAN...I hate that cocky SEAJ!

The benefits and good intentions of the idle chat thread are well known, man. That must be why it is continuing. The silly K awarding is what's being addressed.

While encouraging newbies to participate is a very worthy cause, in my opinion generous K-awarding is not good for their learning. The warmth and the feelings of inclusion that bantering brings is.

And this automatic awarding of K's had stopped after April fool's day - at least 40 days ago.

Thank you

SEAJ

Ps edit
And I have now thought about it - and I will not only endorse that the awarding of K's on this thread  be stopped, I will also be the first one to enforce this new requirement.  
But to banish this thread to the non-posting credit veggie section is sure to starve and eventually kill it.
Newbies needs and wants RA, and they are NOT going to participate in the ICT even if its gonna be towards their own benefit/slow, natural integration into our forum mores; that is just an unfortunate fact.

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 14-6-2012 23:37 ]

Remember guys:  This forum is about fucking hookers.  

That's it.  We're not curing cancer here...  And one can easily see the mods are NIOT gonna change their mind.

So deep breath, SEAj.  This thread remains, and it's value in and of itself will now be further proven, right?  so let it happen without continuing the war and bad blood.

My 2 cents.

hookers?  wait, what site am I in?  with all the std medical chat around & relationship with WG.... I thought we were curing cancer!!

IMHO/I think you give too little credit to our mods.

These are NOT just a group of unthinking dour faced old men but guys who really are committed to the welfare and well being of the forum as whole.  
If WE can put forward well reasoned, well intentioned and workable "other" solution, I am very sure that they will not just dismiss it all so lightly.

This is what I have observed from their previous actions/decisions in the past and I have faith!!
And DEFINITELY NOT war and bad blood - what's the use of THAT?!

SEAN - yeah, but I still cain't stand that cocky SEAJ!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 14-6-2012 23:24 ]

Sorry, in my first paragraph (#4006) I wasn't just referring to newbies.

When more established members like yourself (i.e. non-newbies) grant Ks like they're an embarassment to be gotten rid off asap daily, it can look like "K trading". That model also is not healthy for newbies to take on board, imo.

[ Last edited by  CunningLinguist at 15-6-2012 01:17 ]

As far as I am concerned and for the short time that I have been here, this thread is ultimately a FUN thread....I love the brotherhood that we can actually FEEL here. I swear I can almost taste it!

I for one enjoy the numerous posts that has been posted here and all the bantering, rants, advice, help, discussions - whether useful or useless, etc. etc. and whatnots. Does awarding a few Ks here and there in this thread gonna do huge dent to whatever that is a concern? Honestly I am not sure and I don't really know, perhaps I will never even find out!

Per my observations, I would say none of us are Karma whores in this thread. All of us (or maybe I should say almost all of us) just like and enjoy being here for the fun that we can derive from a crazy (stupid) thread that was initiated and started by our beloved multi-faceted SEAJ/SEAN/The Preacher or whatever.

I am really not sure what is the politics that has been going around here but I got a shock a couple of days ago when I logged on and couldn't find this thread where it normally sits. One quick search and I am glad to find it here in Vege Cafe...well no more Ks to be earned here but at least I can still come here...I still belong...I am still part of one big silly group of horny men having fun with words...

Just my honest opinion.... hope no one will dock my pathetically few Ks I have earn at crawling pace...

Preparing my reply here,
I feel like those guys in "The Hurt Locker", getting dressed ready to get close and personal with an IUD ... and that's the point.  
I don't feel that way writing to others, but writing to you really puts me on my mettle and requires careful preparation and a full suit of armour.  

Thanks for your PM - let me respond here, in good faith and good humour.


Dude: you missed it!  By putting my disclaimer I absolutely and solely claimed 100% of the responsibility for the opinions I posted.  I'm not hiding behind anyone, the opposite of your interpretation.  Yes, usually that phrasing of disclaimer is put up by websites who want to protect themselves from lawsuits ... but when I write it on my own post myself I'm taking responsiblity, not deflecting it.  

Observation 1: you're reacting with a looong post to something that was actually your own misunderstanding.  
Suggestion: before writing anything angry, or venting your feelings, try posting a short question to clarify your perception first.


Observation 2: I beg to disagree with you - I think the ICT has its own energy, and people join in for the fun of it, not to get K.  I speak for myself and am confident most people join in because of the conversation, not for the K.

EXCEPT THAT ...


if you are right - and people are actually joining in to increase their RA - that would be precisely the reason for demoting it.

The whole point of the RA system here is to encourage THE SORT OF PARTICIPATION that THE ADMIN WANTS ... which means reports, and subjects directly related to the 141 trade in Hong Kong.  All that, safely, sanely, and legally.  If people can get RA without doing the hard work of writing first-person field reports, if they can do it an easier (lazier) way by posting anything and everything that's on their minds, they will ... and even that is tolerable, as long as the overall aim of best rewarding those who do the most relevant work is kept in balance.  

If I'm wrong, if the thread withers and dies just because nobody gets K any more, well, that would prove the Admin and his chosen Mod team right all along.  But, my view is it will continue, for the good reason that there are people who do enjoy reading your thread and joining in.


True

but

you must stop to consider whether the change is desired or not.

Observation 3: If you choose to fight The System, you must expect The System to fight back.  And in real life it's not always the passionately motivated underdog that wins.  Importantly: when the passionately motivate underdog gets squished under tank tracks as a consequence of being too vocal, everyone loses.  

Ultimately the one individual who has conviction and purity of heart CAN ONLY effect change by enlisting a critical mass of supporters, each of whom have their own conviction and purity of heart.  Oh, and he needs to avoid getting banned.

BTW This 3-minute video is the best articulation I've seen of that essential step: how to transition from being a lone nut to being at the centre of a new movement
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en ... art_a_movement.html

Well worth 3 minutes of anyone's time.

You're welcome!

If you're really that passionate about making changes here, you will have to a) survive, b) enlist supporters to your cause and c) ultimately enlist the active support of the Mods and the Admin.  A worthy challenge to someone as experienced and energetic as you!  
Suggestion: ranting at people is a great way to feel good about yourself, but seldom convinces whoever you're ranting at.  Heck I'm not even sure my own attempt at a considered post here is going to convince you!


Observation 4: actually, and this may be what you're missing, you do have power, a lot of power.  You have the power to spend a massive amount of time, making a massive number of posts / ratings / comments, and making looong rants, some of which need never have started because you misunderstood something in the first place!  

You use that power a lot.  By making so many posts, and such long posts, you're forcing others to spend a lot of time reading stuff, to the extent that it has sometimes been difficult to find contributions that came from other less prolific posters.  
Honestly, I'm glad you have the ICT, because since it was created I find I no longer have to trawl through lots of SEAJ opinions in order to find the opinions of others that I'm looking for ... and I know that when I'm missing the sound of your voice, I can easily find it!!

You have a lot of power in your voice.  It's up to you whether you use that power to create harmony, or to flood others' opinions.

Suggestion: Notice that the forum has it's own natural pace.  Like the tide in the sea, or the change of the seasons, most people contribute at a pace that is slower than yours.  It's their pace, resulting from their life situation and availability of hobby time.  
Practice pacing yourself, and try to match the pace of others in the forum.  Nothing wrong with being prolific, but when every post has a reply by SEAJ, the forum stops being a forum and becomes SEAJ's blog. If you're being driven by your own pace and your own convictions, you can be 100% sure you're making others feel trampled on.  Do it when you must, but don't expect them to like you doing it (unless they're into BDSM that is).


you're welcome.


Some do
Some don't

and so what??

This is a community, and different members fill different roles.  Some write reports.  Some rate reports.  Some moderate.  Some only participate with other Seniors.  Some pay particular attention newbies.  Makes sense to me that we have an ecology with different roles ... how would you have it be different?  

Do you want everyone to be like you?  
I don't (want everyone to be like me, I mean, before you take it personally!!!).  

BTW - Observation 5: please go through the Forum and count up just how many Ratings there are in various threads rebuking members for one-line responses and other infractions, and notice who they came from.  'Nuff said???  
Suggestion: lead by example but don't get upset if others choose not to follow.  Instead, if you're not getting the response you set out to get, change your style of leadership.


A great question to ask.  This is his space.  Just as your home is your space, and you get to set the house rules for your guests to abide by, he ultimately has the right to set his (completely arbitrary) rules.  Ask, but then you have to be open to his answer.  
BTW I think you got an answer to that question, did you hear it?


... careful ... now you're back on your own judgement of how others should set their priorities ...

Apologies if this is long and rambling

but this IS the Idle Chat Thread, right?

and at least I didn't stoop to serialising it!!!

Thank you.
A very detailed and honest answer that even at first blush contains many useful/helpful advise for me; I will need to digest it/take it all in - but  just wanted to write and acknowledge/thank you for your continued guidance now.

And the following - although not a haiku - is perhaps appropriate here.
////////////
Spring passes and one remembers one's innocence.
Summer passes and one remembers one's exuberance.
Autumn passes and one remembers one's reverence.
Winter passes and one remembers one's perseverance.

^ Yoko Ono ^
///////////

SEAJ

IMO, this thread will live on. I believe many of us likes it here, we chatted, we shared, we fought, we rant, we ramble, we whatever here so much that the community has formed whether we like it or not.

Unless some of the regular Bros who come here regularly stops coming here, I don't see why this thread will die a slow death.

Like I said, I don't think any of us are Karma whores.

[ Last edited by  Tuffbod at 15-6-2012 16:08 ]

Twiceaweek:
Sorry, my knee jerked.

Seaj,  
Thank you for creating such a welcoming environment for newbies and encouraging the continued growth of the forum.  

Ultimately the fate of this will all be determined by the board.  As with all free services, we are not the clients, we are the product.  And the actions that benefit the real customers, the advertisers, will prevail.  

If the ICT thread works well in its new incarnation, then I guess it will remain here.  But if new users fall away, page views drop, and advertiser click-throughs go down, then the beancounters will look for what has changed.  We're all just pieces on the chess board.  There is really no point in yelling at each other.

Wander,
Yes its all about the hookers.  And while all this kerfuffle was in progress I uploaded a long report on a great chick in Pattaya.  I think that that was a once in a lifetime punt,so I'll plug the report here.

This thread indicates idle chat, encouraging chit-chat, so IMO the ''anything goes'' nature is suitable for this section. I have always been against using karma to encourage contribution of this sort, and despite you saying that automatic Karma distribution stopped after April 1, a lot was still distributed - I even noticed a generic rating comment being used to thank contribution a few pages back.  If the regulars of this thread (e..g. Ashdragon) are posting because they enjoy the chit-chat (rather than for credit), they'll continue to do so.  To date, it's been a good thread for those interested in discussing anything, so hopefully it'll continue to serve that purpose.

I think it's really simple actually: this thread will live on if SEAJ lives on

... and I also think that if SEAJ stops posting here prolifically, the Idle Chat thread is unlikely to continue under its own steam for long ...

Before Seaj, there was no Idle Chat, because there was no Idle Chatter ... the banter between members was spread around the forums, and occasionally erupted in dispute that ran its course ... and the forum was more focussed on punting and reporting

Those who want punting information and reports need threads that are short, high-quality, and concentrated.  

By contrast, SEAJ has a prolific, shoot-from-the-hip style, unafraid of offending people.  Some people are inspired by it, others are alienated by it.  Creating this thread was a brilliant piece of statesmanship that enables both to co-exist in the same forum.  It's SEAJ's blog, and is the place to find him and get up-to-date on his stream of consciousness.  Those who are alienated by a flood of posts from the same person can look elsewhere.  

I also think that allowing broad discussion to take place, covering all (except illegal) topics, is healthy for a community.  Provided that the overall goals of the forum - to be the best place to find up-to-date information about punting and safety - are not compromised, allowing diversity helps everyone.  

When the rest of the forum remains focusses on the purposes it was set up for, when it excels at the thing it is best at, the two parts complement each other - the goal-focussed correspondents, and the prolific banter.  Having them clearly delineated, quarantined, makes it possible for readers to choose what they are looking for.  

Oh, and I bet the Admin loves all the page-views ...

Thanks for the those words...as usual.

Know what?  
After reading and re-reading it several times, I WAS actually going to write up a nice long reply to your previous post, but then said to myself - meh - whatever.

They're going to find fault with anything/everything I write anyway - so what's the point of giving them more ammo?

SEAN - yeah, this whole thing has left me with a very bad taste in my mouth.

LOL! I guess with you, anything left unsaid leaves a bad taste, right?! But that is how you are put together, and I hope it doesn't change.
(Well, maybe do carry on practising haiku to become more succinct!)