Interesting Read!

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/rrbprostitute.htm

What are your thoughts on this?

I've done a lot of reading on this subject, but have not been able to come to a conclusion as to whether non IV-drug-using prostitutes are or are not a significant transmission vector for HIV.

The article you cite is quite old, from 1993 (20 years ago), but when one goes looking for more modern articles, their conclusions are all over the place. There have, supposedly, been HIV epidemics among prostitutes in Thailand (1/3), and Vietnam (1/6).

Yet it is clear that despite there being a heck of a lot of unprotected vaginal sex happening, clients of prostitutes are not getting HIV in large numbers, even though they are getting other STDs in large numbers (notably chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis). HPV remains an unknown. Genital Herpes (mostly without any symptoms whatsoever) is also fairly common. All the bacterial diseases are easily treatable, and I have chosen to consider them as similar in "badness" to, say, strep throat. That is to say, nasty for a week or two, but easily treated with a course of antibiotics. I should mention that I have never caught one of these diseases (well, I have had strep throat), but I don't do unprotected vaginal sex, although I always do BBBJ and often do DATY.

So, we clients are getting STDs as one would expect, from unprotected sex, but by and large we are not getting HIV, even when the prostitute has HIV.

Sadly, it is difficult to know what this means in terms of the personal safety of both client and prostitute. My personal belief is that Western society is obsessed with controlling and limiting access to sex, and that HIV has provided a wonderfully scary and credible resource for those looking to further that control. Thank goodness that enough scientists are working on HIV transmission vectors so that eventually there will be enough studies to come to a definitive conclusion. In the mean time, one must make one's own mind up about HIV. For me, the risk that I might catch it still prevents me from BBFS.

Final thought: Even though condoms really suck, I always use them for vaginal (or anal) sex, except with SO. But where are the posts from clients who have caught HIV? I have been on this forum for about a year, and haven't seen any, though there have been several "OMG, I had BBFS and am now convinced I have HIV", followed a few weeks later by "Phew, results were negative". Even if one such story were found, it's not enough to match the scary scenarios that society places in front of us. One would expect many such stories, in which case all those who do BBFS would have long since stopped by now. BBFS happens, and HIV transmission to clients doesn't seem to. I'm encouraged by this, but not ready to bet my life on it.

Gherk

[ Last edited by  ggherkin at 13-9-2013 04:12 ]

I have read a lot of the current literature about this as well (any one playing this game as much as we do should research it, right?).

It seems clear to me the evidence is showing that transmission rates through hetero vaginal sex is almost zero.  Especially female-to-male transmission.  Studies have a hard time finding ANY recent (last decade) cases.  The ones they thought were clear turn out to have the typical twist (the HIV-positive man was either a secret drug-user, or was secretly having gay anal sex, and lied about it).  

Intravenous drug use and anal penetration (where blood vessels break MUCH more regularly and there are no protective lubricants)  are the two leading indicators, and both factors are ones many men will lie about.  This is why the earlier statistics were so wrong.  Once they removed these two groups, the true rate of transmission during vaginal hetero intercourse was revealed.  And it appears to be astonishingly low.  Almost non-existant.

That said.. some key words appear in my answer:  :"appears to be", "almost", etc.  

I am not so convinced that I think the risk is worth it either.  Being careful is still the best idea... and at least it simultaneously removes the threat of pregnancy and all the shit that could cause if a gal chooses to chase you for it.  

But it does make me feel better about some past mistakes -- where I did FS uncovered with WGs and civvies.  The odds are wickedly low for me to have acquired HIV even if the gal was HIV-positive.  That does make me sleep better at nite.

This is quite interesting, do you have any links to your sources?

I always thought HIV was a big risk when it came to unprotected sex with wg's, or any girl I don't know that well actually.

Here is an excellent summary, giving many references.

Note that the conclusions are in line with what Wander and I are saying.

It is possible to find many articles that say words like "If you have unprotected sex, sooner or later you will get HIV". However, although those statements are not technically false, they do little to help one understand one's risk.

Here's another way of looking at it:

The chance of getting run over by a car is very low, but every person who dies from it gets run over in exactly one incident. For some of them, it will be the very first time they crossed the road. For most, it will be just one road-crossing out of thousands they have done. And of course, nearly 100% of the people who cross the road do not get run over by a car throughout their whole lives.

There is only one way to guarantee not getting run over by a car: never cross the road, or, cross the road while wearing a tank, so that if you are run over by a car, you will not be hurt by it.

There is a cost to your lifestyle if you decide never to cross the road. But it does pretty much guarantee that you won't get run over by a car.

So, for unprotected sex, the studies I referenced above say: Some will catch HIV in their first unprotected encounter. For others, it will be just one encounter out of many they've had. And the vast majority will never catch it, despite having unprotected sex their whole lives. This is because the transmission of HIV from female to male during unprotected vaginal sex is very low, and for oral sex, even lower. For anal sex, somewhat higher.

Final thought: Thank goodness that HIV doesn't transmit very easily. But many other lesser STDs transmit much more easily, so it isn't just HIV one has to worry about. At the end of the day, we all choose to cross the road, but like me, many punters decide that the risk of HIV or some other infection are still too high (or at least we don't quite have the confidence that those risks are low enough) for us to engage in unprotected vaginal or anal sex. But the majority of us seem comfortable participating in unprotected oral sex, even though the risk is likely not absolutely zero.

Sorry if this is frustrating because it doesn't supply a clear yes/no answer. But that's life.

Gherk

Here is my question...
Wearing your usual condom choice, would you have vaginal sex with a woman you knew had HIV?

If your answer is "no," then you are letting the condom be your excuse for your habit.  In other words... you are saying "Oh, well I wear a condom so my risk of catching anything is acceptably low."  Except you don't really believe that or you would have no problem having sex with HIV positive women.  So the truth is that you still think there is an unaceptable risk.  But you have sex with prostitutes anyway.

Now the scientific truth is that transmission through unprotected vaginal sex is so infrequest that it is statistically 0.  Condoms DO help reduce the transmission of other kinds of disease and seminal fluid.

Wear a condom.  Don't shoot drugs into your veins.  Stop worrying about HIV unless you are willing to abstain from sex.

Maybe it should just be called the woman paradox.  Cash does not have some magical property that makes a woman more or less infectious.  

Non-pro bar hookups are far more risky IMHO.  They just don't seem to have the same self-preservation instincts that the pros do.

The non-pros certainly don't have the same preservation instinct... I've had many in Wanchai completely ready to go for it unprotected.  Kind of sad really.

The non-pros certainly don't have the same preservation instinct... I've had many in Wanchai completely ready to go for it unprotected.  Kind of sad really.