Yes, but even if they do display a different (I will not say lower) moral standard than other women in their choice of profession; that does not mean that they cannot become faithful and loving mothers and wives. It does not mean that they are any less deserving or capable of love.

It is this jump in reasoning that I disagree with. You deduce far too much about their inner natures from the mere choice of profession. And it is your moral preconceptions that lead you to do this.

I will repeat my question a second time ...

What do you think of yourself applying the same reasoning ? Following what you say, men that monger have "lower moral standards" than others who don't. Is that so ? How about we say "different" moral standards ? How about working girls have made a rational decision based on what they are willing to do to get out of the shit hole they are in ? If I was in their position, I would be willing to do *anything* to change my life, including crime. No way I had be making oversize jeans for fat american 20h/day for 10+ years.

Yes, how is that? These girls are hugely important to us. They make our lives much more enjoyable; I would even go so far as to say that they make life more worth living. But here you have all these guys criticizing WG's for their low moral standards. What is it that these girls are doing that is so reprehensible? I really don't understand all this moral indignation about a simple act of sex.

But if anyone is to be criticized, it's those of us who are betraying our wives and GF's. If our women found out about our behavior, not only would they be deeply hurt, they would have a legal right to divorce us. Adultery is illegal. The WG's, on the other hand, are committing no crimes, at least in HK, and aren't harming anyone. Instead, they provide an important service that we need and are willing to pay highly for. So to turn around and look down of these girls is sheer hypocrisy.

Is it guilt that makes us despise the WG's; are we attempting to make ourselves feel better about our own betrayals by considering these girls not worthy of respect? "Yes dear, I did screw another woman, but she was just a whore."

Imagine a society in which the providing of sexual relief was considered a respectable, well-paid profession. No one would despise the WG's, and the WG's would not feel ashamed of what they do - sounds like a much saner, less hypocritical place to me.

In any case, I refuse to demean either the WGs or myself with harmful moral nonsense.

By the standards set by most societies, that's perfectly true - we do have lower moral standards than others and I don't think we should lie to ourselves about that. But as I've said before, I'm not judging people on their morals - as long as you don't hurt others, you can pretty much do as you want as far as I'm concerned. And there are other, much more important standards of morality. In my opinion, those who steal, commit fraud, con people, fail to pay workers wages, fail to pay their bills, fail to pay their taxes, mistreat their maids, are cruel to animals, fail to live up to their obligations, etc. have much lower moral standards than those those of us who don't do those things, but do visit WGs . I consider myself to be a decent person and I've worked hard for most of my life, but admit that I have a weakness for young gals and don't even try to resist the temptations - I consider it a very minor vice and I guess it's because of a failure in my moral character - so be it. But I try to do other good things to balance my karma. I try to live a good life and I donate quite a bit to my favourite charities and, after I visit a WG, I try to be extra-special nice to my wife - you can say it's guilt if you want and it probably is.


Well bro, I guess that says a lot more abour your moral character than the fact that you visit WGs.

[ Last edited by  Jake at 28-1-2008 12:28 ]

You're still not anywhere close to understanding what I'm saying. Firstly, I'm not criticizing WG's for their low moral standards. I'm simply
saying that, everything else being equal, they have lower moral standards than other girls who choose not to be WGs. That's just a
statement, not a criticism. I've also never said they are doing anything reprehensible. And I've never expressed any moral indignation
about the act of sex - far from it. I guess you all know I love sex and the gals who provide it.


I agree and I've never made any claim to be a highly moral person. I have a flaw in my moral character and I accept that. All I ask is that
you accept the same about WGs.


I don't look down on these girls; I just look up to others more.


I've never said I despise WGs. I've said I'm grateful to WGs

I guess what it all boils down to is the way I was raised. I was taught that hard work is a virtue. I was taught that, if you want something
in this life, you go out and work for it. Nobody gives you anything. A decent day's work for a decent day's pay. I see WGs circumventing
everything I was taught. As I said before, once a week I see a pretty, decent hard-working girl in my local Wellcome store. So, do I respect
a WG earning $60,000 to $100,000 per month as much as I respect this poor shop girl earning maybe $10,000 per month. The answer is NO,
I don't. Like I said, I don't look down on WGs, I just look up to others more. And if my son or my friend had to choose between marrying a
WG and marrying a shop girl - well, as far as I'm concerned, it's no contest.

Go live the life of an average chinese worker and then we will discuss this bit again. Hell, just visit a factory. Any will do.

Lots of gals do it without becoming WGs and lots of guys do it without becoming
criminals. So, which ones do you admire most?

When I was kid growing up in the north of England, most of the men were coal
miners - one of the worst jobs ever known to man and, thank god, they're all
closed down now.

They worked hard, played hard, enjoyed life and got into the occasional fight. But
they were some of the finest men I ever knew and nobody turned to crime. Hell,
when I was a kid, we didn't even lock our doors at night. Different world bro.

This poor shop girl is still earning an order of magnitude more than slave factory workers in Asia. They are often earning less than a 10 HKD a day, ie 300 HKD/month. Far far *far* from the 10,000 HKD you quote. And I don't think the life expectancy of that girl is less than 30-40 years old.

And yes, I am sure those miners enjoyed the justice brought to them by good rich men following all the rules. If these miners did not revolt violently (see Albert Camus et al.) and stayed good sheeps, their condition would certainly have improved by itself. There is a point where people either break or fight. See what is happening in suburbs in Europe. A small incident can make the whole thing blow up like few years ago.

I persist: if my *survival* is in danger, or the life of the ones I love is, I will do anything. Don't make me say more than that. I am not advocating crime as the only and/or best solution and if possible, I will avoid it as going that route can bring even more troubles.

What?! Give me a break!- that is exactly what you're doing.Your and sexpert's posts are full of contempt for WGs. Are we to believe that your statement on the low moral standards of these girls has no emotional content? You continually say that a guy should never marry a WG because they are flawed and will abandon the guy at the first sign of trouble - that's not a judgement?

And this continual comparison of WGs with others who do a "decent, honest" day's work clearly shows that you think what WGs do for a living is neither decent nor honest - that's not a judgment?

You say that you were raised to believe hard work is a virtue; meaning that there is no virtue in what WGs do - that's not looking down on them?

(The "despise" remark was directed at we the mongering community - in my few months on this forum, I have seen many posts that express, not always openly, an intense dislike of WGs.)

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 29-1-2008 01:24 ]

And now you compare WG's to criminals. You are clearly implying here that girls who turn to prostitution are similar to men who turn to crime - that's not moral condemnation?

(Edit: as Jake has correctly pointed out, I have misunderstood his post. He only mentions criminals in response to something cherry_picker brought up in an earlier post. So my apologies.)

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 29-1-2008 14:32 ]

Ah, the good old days - no matter that they earned pittance, made others rich and died of black lung disease at the age of 35 - they were honest lads!

In any case, this argument makes no economic sense. Why is it that you think WGs are not doing "honest' work? They are highly paid because the service they provide is highly valued - isn't that how every profession is evaluated? Again your moral prejudices color your judgments. Next time you're feeling horny Jake, try fucking a coal miner.

Are you implying that the reason we have to lock our doors at night is somehow the fault of criminal WGs?

If you want to exaggerate and deliberately misinterpret everything I say go ahead. My comments have been
very fair and reasonable to the WGs and I don't undertand why you're getting so upset and emotional. Maybe
male menopause?    

No I didn't - you're obviously not following closely enough. My post was in response to cherry_picker who
said he would resort to crime rather than work in a Chinese factory. My reference to crime had absolutely
nothing to do with WGs. And I'm not implying what you say I am. As with all your other replies in this
thread, your inferring something that just isn't there

Your flippant  first sentence makes it fairly clear that you have no respect for honesty. OK, join cherry_picker's side
and go rob an old lady. It's easier than working for a living.

2nd para - again, I have never said WGs are dishonest - that's just your mistake.
So you evaluate a profession by how much they get paid. You think the profession of WG is a higher calling that
teacher, nurse, social worker, policeman and whatever it is that you do. It's a simple, factual statement that, based
on the values of the society in which we all live - WGs have low morals. And that's not meant as a judgement - just a
statement of fact. And, again, I don't judge people or despise people because of their morals. I quite like people with
low morals - they're interesting.

Final sentence - again, I have never referred to WGs as being criminal.

Mars, you really need to read things more closely and think about it before responding.

Well, if that's your motivation, I'm surprised your defending WGs so stongly. I don't think WGs are doing anything to
further the cause of equality for women. If anything, they just help to reinforce one of the old stereotypes - that
women are only good for one thing - sex.

And the comment ... "A whore is a whore is a whore" certainly wasn't mine.

Edit - what happened to the post I just replied to????   

[ Last edited by  Jake at 29-1-2008 02:10 ]

"Go rob an old lady"? Have I said anything to give the impression that I support crime? Who's distorting whose words here?

Prostitution is working for a living. I don't judge a profession by how much it pays; my point is that any legal profession that is well paid, is well paid because the service provided is highly valued. Therefore, prostitution is an honest profession.

You are being disingenuous here - you clearly and repeatedly contrast prostitution with "honest and decent" work - those are your words. Thus you imply that WG's are engaged in a profession that is neither honest nor decent, otherwise why the comparison? Why the edifying tale of the virtuous check-out girl, if not to say that WG's are not virtuous. So I'm not distorting or misinterpreting anything, I'm just pointing out the obvious implications of what you say; and what you say is contemptuous and judgmental, no matter how you try to disguise it as dispassionate social commentary.

You have been highly judgmental throughout this thread, but now, suddenly, your are just uttering statements of fact. It is impossible to comment of the moral behavior of others without passing judgment - your use of the words "low morals" and "higher calling" shows that. But you don't stop at that, you go on to attribute a whole set of negative personality characteristics to these girls who are not up to your moral standards: don't ever marry a WG because she is yada, yada, and will abandon her husband at the first sign of financial difficulty. Didn't you say only marry a WG if you are rich?  And that's not judgmental?

Yes I misread your post #67, I missed cherry_pickers reference to crime, not in post #66 but in post #62.

In any case, Jake, we've made our respective positions on this issue more than clear to each other - why not end things here.

To be honest about my motivation in all of this - the reason why I've given the impression that I'm a "Saint" - is that I see human history as an endless sordid tale of men oppressing women: foot binding, female circumcision, the burqa, sexual slavery, denial of the vote, unequal representation under the law, etc. etc. etc. Just as you are concerned with the mistreatment of animals - a concern I share, I am concerned with the mistreatment of women. Conventional male morality is highly misogynist, and nothing pisses me off more than comments like "A whore is a whore is a whore." Prostitution is just another profession, and all of the disapproval expressed here towards WG's is just another example of hypocritical men using and despising women. Yes, fuck her and use her when she's young, but never allow her to marry and lead a normal life - she's unpure. Remember how this thread started - everybody telling muguel22 to run, not walk, from his WG girlfriend because she's a whore and whores are damaged goods. That's pretty fucking judgmental if you ask me.

OK, this will be my last word on the subject, but I doubt it will make any difference.  


I don't agree and I was going to say I don't judge anyone by their morals and I accept everyone for what
they are. Judgement, to me, is concerned with legal laws, not moral laws. But, obviously, you use the word
judgement in a much looser way and, in this sense we ALL judge people ALL the time - even you.

So, let me ask you a simple question. Do you think a WG is more or less worthy of our respect than a nurse [for example]
or are they equally deserving? If the answer is less - then you have also judged a WG. I assume the answer won't be more.   
If the answer is equal, then you must judge everyone in the world to be equally deserving, which would be ridiculous.
Martin Luther King is more obviously more deserving of respect than the white, racial bigots he opposed. Or don't you think so?

And, Mars, this is just an example. Please don't mis-interpret me again and accuse me of equating WGs with white, racial bigots,
which has been one of your major debating tactics so far.   

[ Last edited by  Jake at 29-1-2008 12:38 ]

You did ask me a question.

I don't see how one can restrict  the meaning of 'judge' only to legal issues, but let that pass. Of course we judge people all the time. I judge WG's to be no different than anyone else. I really see no reason to think otherwise. But my starting point is the individual, whereas your starting point is what you consider to be the low moral character of their profession - which is why I say that your opinions are colored by your prejudices.

I don't really see the need to ration out respect on some scale determined by profession - and to me prostitution is just that, a profession. (Bigot, on the other hand, is not a job description - a bigot is a person defined by his hateful character; so no, I don't respect bigots.)  Therefore, to answer your question, I consider a nurse and a WG to be equally deserving of respect - even tho for the last 30+ years, WG's have contributed much, much more to my well-being than nurses.

Because I have no biases against prostitution, asking whether a WG is more/less deserving of respect than a nurse is, to me, like asking whether a plumber is more/less deserving of respect than a baker. The question makes no sense. When my sink is leaking I see a plumber, when my libido is raging I see a different sort of professional. Both have my respect.

Respect is something that you give to all people, unless they prove themselves undeserving; and I don't think WGs have done anything deserving of disrespect. If you want to talk about admiration for what someone has achieved in life, then yes the brain surgeon has accomplished more than your coal miner, but I respect them both, and I don't assume the brain surgeon is the better person, or will make a better spouse. And the brain guy has almost certainly had advantages in life denied to the bloke who worked in a mine.

And Jake, forcing me to chose between ML King and a bigot is very telling.

Just like it is easier for financial sharks to make money by destroying lives and whole countries instead of creating anything good.

Give me a break here ... My definition of crime is "anything against the law" which is NOT necessarily immoral. Then again, "moral" has a very broad definition. I am certainly immoral in the eyes of a mormon, but in the eyes of porno star, I am very clean.

And I hope you don't think financial sharks and their like are moral because what they do is not criminal? Many criminals have more heart than these scumbags. You seem to think criminality = petty criminals doing street/shop rubbing for quick cash. Those little brats don't last long usually ...

Anyway, I see it is useless discussing intelligently with you if you resort to sophisms to discard those who have different opinions than you.

Our point (I take the liberty of including Marsupial here) is that ANY person may or may not be "good". It's not because you are a coal miner that you are a good man and it's not because you are a WG that you are a bad girl. Now if you simply cannot agree with that, then say it clearly and we will agree to disagree.