bmfknw852:

what am i trying to get at?...that what you claim is inappropriate and does not represent doing all asians a favour... exactly what i neg'd you for...

and if you think banging japanese tourists (oh were they gals only?) is way to give back then you are a moron and deserve to have many, many more neg karma points dished out to you which i'd be all too happy to do...

"or are u japanese" ..... I was tempted to give you max Karma just for that statement.

Please go back and read this thread again. I suspect you have acted impulsively without much knowledge of the subject matter, it's not one that readily provides a platform for jokes/humour. The fact you play the racist card, even though it is likely from a "revenge" perspective", makes me feel you just don't understand ....

I hate to break it to you pal, but you're being used - you're just an easy lay for bored, horny Japanese sex tourists, and you aren't even getting paid.

has anyone here ever considered that the chinese communist party prefers people talk about the nanking massacre instead of the bloody great leap forward? hundreds of thousands killed at nanjing (300,000 by chinese govt's estimation), millions killed by famine because of pigheaded policies during the great leap forward.
we don't need to look too hard for awful crimes, but the problem is the people who committed them are dead. france and italy haven't exactly been the nicest of occupying powers in northern africa. europeans' behavior in the conquest of the americas, the "gentlemanly" english behavior during the american revolution, the armenian genocide, the systematic rape and pillage of the philippines by spain, the americans' destruction of vietnam, then there's that thing called the slave trade... the list could go on and on.
i guess for ordinary people what really gets under your skin as you read about shit like native american villages being given smallpox-tainted blankets is that the people who have committed such crimes are dead -- how do you demand apologies from them? so we're easily manipulated by our governments who themselves have something to hide.

Some of the people involved in the Nanjing massacre are still alive.  Adults today are only a generation or two down from the surviving victims of the massacre.  The memory of the incident is still very fresh in our minds.  I admit though, that overcoming this dispute will be a benefit to Asian countries.  However, it's impossible to overcome the mental scarring of such an event nor the life-long social programming by the surviving elders.  I've spoken to kids in Korea who quite simply, "hate Japan" because of the stories passed onto them by their grandparents.

Anti-Japanese sentiment is strong and will always be because we're just not that far away from the event.  And they have never shown remorse for it.  What angers people the most is that they deny the whole thing.  It's skipped over in Japanese textbooks.  Maybe apologizing will cause discrepencies in their history.  Anyway, it was interesting to hear during my trip to Nanking, that the Chinese govenment fully subsidises all Japanese tours to Nanking.  The catch is that they MUST visit the Nanking Massacre Memorial Museum.

point taken, but vietnam's even more recent. in fact vietnam vets keep running for president. only to lose to draft dodgers...

I always found the lack of an official apology as being a sticking point, especially with it still being fresh in people's minds.

People want an apology, an official statement of guilt and remorse from Japan.  Japan, in turn, apologised many times for war crimes, but only using terms such as "regret".  To say that they have never apologised is wrong, but they have never apologised explicitly enough to appease their neighbours.  I believe that they also didn't specifically mention Nanjing, only their war crimes in general.

I always worry about joining in on topics about Nanjing, because I know that one wrong word might lead to a flaming.

What those men, those soldiers, those Japanese did was so completely wrong.  I hope that the government in Japan and the military will apologise and give a full account of what happened... but does that mean that every and any Japanese should apologise and feel sorry?  Does that mean that it is acceptable for people who were not born then to feel prejedice or hate towards Japanese people who were also not born then?

Maybe every Japanese person should feel sorry and guilty for this terrible massacre;  but, if that is the case, then I should also feel guilty.  You see, I am a man, and all of the crimes commited there were commited by men.  I used to be in the military, and those crimes were commited by men in uniform.

We shouldn't learn about Nanjing and tell people about Nanjing to warn them about the "terrible Japanese who are just waiting for another opportunity to attack" (which is what some people tell their children).  We should teach people about Nanjing to warn them about the dangers of human nature... The fact that a normal man can be driven to do inexcusable and terrible things through his conditioning and his environment.

So, in some way, I don't blame the Japanese directly for what happened.  I blame the individuals who created the situation, the individuals who commited the crimes, and the individuals who let it happen.

Of course... changing the text books was a big nono

[ Last edited by  princeandnpg at 22-6-2009 00:57 ]

what do you mean? fucking all the japanese tourist?
With you dick or with your fist?

As horrible as the "Rape of Naking" was, it was no isolated incident as we know.

A step back in time might help us see where this all came from.    From mid 19th century until late 1920's, Japan looked to the west in an admiring manner.  However the great depression didn't just affect America/Europe - it affected Japan also.  The country suffered, and political and general opinion blamed the west.  General opinion thought that expansion around Asia would help end the depression.

We have to remember that the Japanese were pretty closed off until mid 19th century from the west - when they started to learn properly what was going on around Asia they saw Britain, America, Holland, France - all declaring colonies about the place.  Japan started as early as 1931 in China.

Japan's army expanded hugely in a short amount of time - more than 5 times its size during the first world war (where they fought on the size of the British).  Training the army was deemed difficult - they found extreme disapline to be the only method of enforcing effective training.  The army was desensitized, brutal training continued where daily beatings were the norm until the soldiers lost all humanity.  

Brainwashing.  Extreme political pressure was brought to bear - those who favoured the west or China were not just ostricised - they were killed.  People of Japan were fed propaganda that the west and the Chinese were not people - there were lower than people, they were like insects.

Sound familiar?  Sound like another country at the time who was suffering from vast economic depression?  Like another country who was amassing a large army?  Who's extreme political wing started to take over the government insidiously, until it was beyond a dictatorship?  Japan drew many parallels with Germany, watched them expand their borders, and attempted to do the same.

Here was Japan playing catch up - they just didn't know that the taking of land was now seen as "so last century" - they believed the west was hypocritical for their stance that Japan not be allowed more land - why not?  Many of the European countries had?

So away they went with their occupation of China.

Nanking, being the capital at the time, was finally taken.  Japan was using the might of new, westernised weapons of war on China who was sadly not prepared for the rapid onslaught.  And due to the conditioning of the Japanese army, little mercy or even thought was given to those they occupied.  The rape of Nanking was merciless - men set on fire, women and girls raped, children bayonetted.
America and Britain looked on with contempt and disgust, but actually did not respond in any manner.  Britain had her own problems going on over the water in Europe, and America hadn't really decided at that time to play world policeman.

The Rape of Nanking may be what is most remembered of the Japanese cruelty - perhaps because it was the first serious case, perhaps because it invloved the largest number of attrocities.  But during that period - from 1937 until 1945 I think it's fair to say Japan kept coming back with some serious encores.

We have to remember, that in this man's army - to rape, bayonete, and generally kill as many people as possible - you were praised!  You were given medals, told you were couragious!  One member of the Japanese army stated "If I thought of them as human beings - I could never have done it"  Such was the extreme brain washing.

But this occured in so many places - Singapore, Phillipines, Hong Kong.  Here in Hong Kong during the 18 days of the failed defence of Hong Kong, hugely brutal and sadistic was the massacre at St Stephen's College which was a temporary hospital of over 1400 beds.  Directly following the fall of Hong Kong, the Japanese went on a 3 day vacation of rape and pillage.  A witness later concluded: "Anyone who witnessed the tidal wave of Japanese sex crimes in Hong Kong, or in any other city they captured, could be excused for thinking that the Japanese were by nature a race of sexual criminals."

My own thoughts are that after that, and after losing a war - imagine how one would feel about one's country and fellow countrymen?  For a nation, a race of people so fiercely proud, who value honor above all else - how must the effect of losing a war, then discovering all the attrocities your countrymen have committed?

How to start rebuilding, regaining confidence in your country, in your people?  I can only imagine that the Japanese culture could find no way to explain to the generations to come how shamefully they had acted.  Perhaps it was thought that once the country was back on its feet, public pride restored, that it could be slowly introduced?  Who knows?  My thinking is that as a populace the Japanese people already accept it, know it, and deal with it in their own way.  As a Country I don't think Japan is ready to deal with that yet.  And as much as I feel for the likes of China regarding these attrocities, I believe you cannot force an apology - it must be freely given.  China has the patience and fortitude to continue - cordial friendship between the two countries, and await in hope for a day that Japan will one day publicly recognise the suffering that it caused through the encouragement of its military to go "above and beyond" the call of such henious "duty".

I totally agree with your point.

Maybe I am political incorrect. But who cares Nanjing massacre a few generations later? Nanjing massacre, however sad as it was, is not something new in Chinese history (or for that matter, in human's history). Mongolian and Manchurian did the same thing (or worse) to the Han-Chinese a few hundred years ago. The history can even date back before the Great Wall was built. But few if any Chinese still bear the historical scars and hate against Mongolian and Manchurian. I don't see any Chinese demanding apology from those northern people. They happily accept those "barbarians" descendants into their Chinese big family and celebrate those "barbarians" historical "accomplishments".

Had Japanese and Nazi Germany had won WWII, we would have been very likely speaking Japanese and German now.

Much like the pilots who dropped the a-bombs to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The jap army was treated like dirt and inhuman when they were in Army camp, beaten up, slapped for no reason and treated like a dog themselves.
They were brain washed with only 1 propanganda; better to die at war then return home alive disgracefully........their lives belongs to the imperial Japanese Army......

So when they were unleasehed to the War and conquered a city/country......they started to behave like an animal......vicious cycle indeed!!

Well maybe because the Nanking Massacre was documented, third party evidence, photo/video footages, etc.
The public is very visual........


About the bombing of hiro/ naga, "an eye for an eye"........ but none of the Japs got raped / sodomised / tortured or pussy burning and slicing!!!

Should Japan apologize for what she did in China in WWII? Yes and No.

Yes, because Japan lost the war. Winners rule and don't apologize.

No, at leat not to PRC state and government, as Chairman Mao had honestly pointed out when receiving Japanese politicians and businessman:
"There is no need for Japan to apologize to China. Were it not for Japanese invasion, we would have still been hiding in some northern caves, and there is no way for us to build PRC. And for that matter, we should thank you."

wow....good info.

No wonder Mr. Mao never rest in peace, his body and soul is kept and trapped in a box in the Mausoleum, Tianamen Square, BJ.....till this very day......

The Chinese public were not so visual during Mao's era.
At that time, Chinese xenophobia were ALL directed against America and later Soviet Union.
No one gave a shit to Nanking Massacre.

there's a contradiction implicit in there -

you're right, you can't force an apology.  

and yet ...

unless you stand up and confront bad behaviour when you see it, you condone it.  

What happened when Neville Chamberlain appeased the Nazis, saying "peace for our time" the day before the German invasion of Czechoslovakia?  History shows.  

I'm a gweilo, and nothing the Japanese ever did during the war had any impact on me or my family (they suffered under Germans and Russian aggression instead) - but I do get worried witnessing the extraordinary lengths the Japanese authorities go to, to avoid saying "yes, we did that, so solly" - just as I get concerned by what Americans are doing in the name of (their own) National Security.  

The concept of "face" - especially saving it - is a terrible thing that causes immeasurable harm in relationships.  

I respect Chinese leadership and Chinese people for raising their concerns, and respect them even more when they stop short of using aggression to demand reparations ... also provided they refrain from using violence against their own internal dissidents ...

General Sherman (US Civil War) had it right...  in three words.  You cannot successfully fight a war unless you rip the inherent moral constraints out of your soldiers.  And once you do that, it's hard to respect any moral lines.  Brutality against combatants blurs with brutality against innocents.  And yes, like the Japanese, if you have participated in such atrocities, you probably just want to bury the memories forever rather than really face what you did...

I do not mean to defend the Japanese actions...  or anyone else's.  I just think that war is designed to uncover our basest instincts.  Whenever there is war, there will be atrocities and failure to acknowledge the reality of what occurred.  I think it's human nature...  unfortunately...

CGP

why talking about the massacre of nanking now?

6 months ago, for the anniversary of the nanking massacre, they talk a lot about it on tv and magazines in hk/macau.
and no one didn't mention it here.

Anniversary or not, why not discuss this topic?