Ummm, I think it was clear Yahoo implied that the extended-Visa would be a WORKING VISA!  If we are having a rheotical debate about changing the laws to make the trade legal than this is a given.  Few gals ANYWHERE want to be a WG in their hometown - they almost all go elsewhere to work to protect their name, and family's name back home.

Anyway, almost ALL the WGs in HK are practising their trade illegally today.  Only local-HK's working alone and not soliciting are legal.  Yet 141 is all PRC and Thai.  All the WanChai bars are SEAsian.   

Make it truly legal, with VISA's for "entertainers" and even more would be willing if the trade earned more than they coud earn back on the farm or in PI or Vietnam, etc.  

Besides SEAj, wasn't it you who suggested I contact ZiTeng when my gal Rose got beaten??

[ Last edited by  wander at 5-1-2012 15:28 ]

Yup!! I shuurrre did suggest you contact Ziteng when your Rose got beaten - and cases like that - Hell yes, let them feast on such "deplorable injustice and time to change the laws" feed-fests!

Like I said - I'm only telling you WHAT IT IS!!  Not economics, not morality, not even anything remote.  It's just what it is.

And even if we go along with your rhetorical suggestion that we open up Hong Kong and allow ALL Hookers a Legal visa to come freely here to work as a hooker (Heck, mebbe then I'll stop my DH contract and instead get my maid to work me under a Hooker visa - should be easier to deal with. LMAO!)

Then what?? They'd need to work at only a legal house - yes?  And these houses will have rules and regulations that "protects" these gals - right? And to protect the "earning power  of these gals - they'd set a "minimum wage (You WISH its gonna be set at $28/hour! You Wish!) - and what do you have??/Voila!! the Walletjes in Wanchai i/o in Amsterdam!!  A bunch of haggly old gals, demanding their rates for 15 minutes behind the curtain and actual RULES about what's OK to do or NOT do, How much for each item on the menu...and oh perhaps a "Heel erg bedankt" if you had been a good boy!!

Err.... please think where your debate point is leading you up to wander!!  LMAO!!

SEAJ

Ps edit:

And I'd much rather that we NOT just go on a rhetorical debate - totally pointless as there's NOT gonna be any tangible results.
I would much rather we debate about the situation as it is and what CAN realistically be done about it. IMHO - Ziteng - worst thing for us punters, Unionization of WG's  -what's the word for  more worse than worst?? - Ah yes... disastrous! Forgeddabout these 2!!! I prefer things as it is - Gweilo, wander, yazoo - you guys want change - then WHAT?  And please no rhetorical suggestions/suppositions!! What's the use of THAT?!
Anything?? Or should I just say "NEXT!" Discussion over!! LMAO!


LMAO!! Have I ever been to a Macau Sauna?  Have I ever been to a Macau Sauna??
nah... I don't think I'll go on with a reply - it cannot be but to get personal!  LMAO!
Wander - where's the elegance in your debate? Elegance you easily display when doing reports about your wanderings. What's with these continuing snide bites?


Just saw this rating comment you had for yazoo and....WRONG!! Again Wrong!
Gals that come over to Macau from the PRC are on their 2 way permit and when they land, the get such 2 way permit chopped stating how long she can stay. The LE in Macau USUALLY just turn a blind eye to their activities BUT has on occasion use their legal powers to round up gals for breaching their conditions of stay which also has prohibition against them working whilst in Macau.  And guess what, such round ups many time happens when a large operator or another feels that some part of their own business is affected.  NOT saying at their behest...but a heckuva nice coincidence each time!
Same thing with the arrivals from SE Asia, although at the Saunas, the operators will most times get an actual "working visa" for them as physical therapists or whatever.
Nothing FULLY legal even in Macau!
Ask your Sally to show you the chop she got on her passport when she went to Macau.

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 5-1-2012 16:59 ]

New Visa idea for HK

141Visa.  Allows 6 month working stay at registered establishments or under registered supervision (papasan/mamasans).  Large upfront fee (rather than taxing their income)  (includes mandatory health check at beginning and end of their stay from public hospital with results linked to their passport).

Happy medium between free for all and making sure the criminal element (both triad and political) still makes something of the backs and pussies of these (hopefully sexy) women.

Apologizes if I was snarky, mate.  I agree there is no need for it.  

(I also agree it is probably time to drop the whole discussion as it IS just ideology with little we can act upon.)

Anyway -- my Macau comment was based on your comment that if it was totally legal and regulated that the service would decline, prices would go up, and quality would turn into old ugly whores.  But, as yoou know from Macau sauna's the talent is awesome, the service is (usually) suberb, and the establishments are amazing.  And, I believe, most of the gals are indeed there legally.  Sauna prostition is entirely legal, licensed, and regulated.

BTW:  Sally is a bargirl, so indeed operating illegally and not savvy on the sauna scene.

Cheers mate.   Pls excuse my rudeness.

Nah.... we all get heated in a GOOD debate!  No need to apologize!

And in direct response to your Macau remark, I believe that I do know "just a little bit" about that. LOL

But please note my response that in Zhuhai, where ANY P4P activities is highly illegal (but of course only sporadically enforced) that saunas, KTV's, BBS etc are priced at basically a fraction of what they are in Macau.  Just a 10 minutes stroll across a simple land border!

And yes, the Macau saunas PER SE are legal and licensed and whatever - but the actual "service" provided....welll.... not quite!! And the more sinister part of saunas in Macau is that they ARE all controlled by powerful (!!!) and large organizations.  So much for the gals getting a fair deal - and so much for us punters getting a cheap romp (Pls refer to above paragraph).

Fact of the matter is that when there was only very few saunas in Macau - chief amongst which was at the basement of the Old Lisboa (and it was so basic that to get a "steam treatment" one was actually put into a plastic-domed tent with one's head sticking out), the gals had to make "separate deals" to meet you afterwards. My uncle told me that in those days one could bargain to your heart's content to get the best deal....with the gal taking ALL of the transacted amount!

SEAJ

///////////////////////

On another but related topic - I have questions on what gweilo69 is all about on his other thread
Best place on Earth for Punting: Prague
http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/v ... 6088&highlight=
Which I will take the liberty of C+P'ing here.

Gweilo69 - you address this to our satisfaction and I will credit you back all the Karma points I have deducted from you - PLUS even give you some extra? Deal?  And when I say "to our satisfaction" I will listen to concensus from other bros here>


[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 6-1-2012 15:56 ]

Direct response to yazoo's Q (post #16): my friend would be hurt by more competition but does voice the opinion that restricting 141s to one WG makes work isolating & insecure. So eliminating this law & police harassment would be better for them & Ithink what good for them is good for punters. I do not believe punters only care about price. I believe they sincerely care for the well being of the WGs too.

I'm surprised my intentions have been suspect so i assure SEAJ & everyone that I am not some "wanker" ... "laughing" at this. But this should not be the point. If anyone raises some interesting debatable point --then debate it as a hypothetical if you doubt the real-life sitaution. Fact is, everything I've posted is true; i just have been thrust in to this world ( with little past experience)  without having chosen to do so. Now that I have (because of Kary) I  am seeing it from the WG's perspective. I don't believe punters like SEAJ care only about the money. I think they do care for the well-being of the WGs too. And what I've learned is that it is tough out there. He'll, I couldn't do if I were a woman. And these almost all physically small, economically disadvantaged, under-educated, culturally deprived but yet very nice people. None of us want to take advantage of their poor lot in life by exploiting them financially AND sitting back while they are subjected to suffering police harassment, deputation, beatings, etc. So my odd introduction to this world makes me care about Kary's interests (& others). They are the underdogs in this. As a rich (comparatively), educated, English-speaking male I do NOT feel it that I have to worry about my own interests being threatened (eg. As in the price of punting going up if WGs working conditions were to be improved).  
Someone else asked about not seeing a real photo of Kary. I still have not figured
out how to attach, so I e-mailed one to DaBestHK. Maybe he could forward it to
anyone interested. But my original thought was that wider exposure would lead to one of you guys responding "hey, yeah, I know her --nice girl, honest,  she just wants an exit strategy & can't abandon her family." or "Dude, I know her, she will take all your money" Either response would help me proceed (in different directions). BTW: no concern about karma points. I wish all you guys (& WG's) the best!

OK..GREAT response....but the Jury's still out....and the jury is the rest of the interested members here!

Ok guys - is Gweilo69 REALLY such a clueless newbie to the mongering world even if he is in his mid 50's, has mongered - at least I'd hope he did in Prague - and has been making whoopee with his Kary the 42 YO happy hooker from Mongkok

OR

is he a heckuva skilful cyberworld operator trying to pull the wool over all our collective eyes?!

Whaddya guys think?  I really need your input!  HELLLLLPPPP!!!  

And BTW, he also posted a response of sorts, #19 on his other thread about Prague -

http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/v ... 6088&highlight=

SEAJ

Ps Edit
And BTW - Gweilo69 also asked how to post up pictures on our forum - which I replied completely to in post #2968 of
http://forum.sex141.com/eforum/v ... id=984&page=149
Does complete the neat picture he portrays of himself as being clueless huh?! Nice touch!

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 7-1-2012 01:17 ]

I have one serious issue.  How can he simultaneously claim to be so clueless to the world of punting (as he claims in this last post)  AND an expert on punting in Prague??

YES GWEILO - how do you resolve your cluelessness on the one hand and your worldly experience on the other?

You've come on here acting all clueless about some supposed "great Romance" with your Kary - a romance that has no chance at all as the fact of the matter is - as you had you yourself written - that she had been guilty of immigration violations in Canada, and thus it would be impossible for her to ever return to be in your arms there as a landed immigrant.

And then turn around and report about your expertise in Mongering - in Prague nonetheless - as such expertise would have made you very much aware that the situation you described with Kary is nothing but a con.  And then you tantalize us with your supposed "Photo" of her - even going as far as making another supposedly clueless query on the Introduce yourself thread of all places, to ask about how to post up such photo;  I replied you in detail - and now you claim to still not be able to do so?

And then of course this thread - which you KNOW would incense others here on a SEX BOARD WHERE WE DISCUSS PAID SEX! Proposing that we should support unionizing WG's and Ziteng?  Yeah, RIGHT!!

I would appreciate your counsel to me - as I truly am clueless on how to resolve such anomalies in your behaviour on our board.

Thank you

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 7-1-2012 15:02 ]

SEAJ, you have a great nose.
I have been following these threads and my gut feeling is that he (she) is probably a journalist or a sociology PhD student doing a project on social networks. His/Her posts are all "leading questions", aiming to solicit responses that will give away our demographics, our political leaning, and how organised we are. You and I know it's impossible to find this Kary character, but suggestions from our brothers will give away the working of the sex industry in Hong Kong. These questions demonstrate standard skills of generating "quotes" for books or reports. You seem to be the only here who spotted it.
If I am wrong about Gweilo69, my sincere apology. You are probably born with these interview and investigation skills. You should use your ability to make the world a better place.
By the way, Prague is definitely not the best place in the world for mongering.

WOW...another angle that I've never even considered!

Yes, our forum IS a great source for those hunting up information/data for dissertations! And we HAVE HAD in the past infiltrations by journos gathering material for his stupid magazine/web article.

All the more reason why we here should sometimes be wary and tread carefully when giving out information/opinions etc.

Thanks!

SEAJ

So many things to respond to. Not an "infiltrator" looking for quotes but I did learn from you guys, so thanks --it  has been helpful. I'm not putting myself forward as any kind of expert monger, just the opposite. BTW the instructions for attachments are not clear. Still no joy. So please ask daBestHK to somehow get to you the photo I sent to him. In my eyes Kary does look good --25? I don't know I just threw a # out there. $3G, again Kary was just throwing out a number of what her family needs. If we were to seriously sit down & talk $ then my guess is she would say she could earn such-&-such at another job & could I make up the shortfall. But she has not asked for a nickel so far.
ZiTeng & unionization? Hey I just through it out there as something you guys should have opinions about --& the discussion was interesting. Although nobody mentioned the major problem, which is WGs do not have one employer. This makes certifying a union very difficult, as in: with whom would you negotiate a contract? Plus any union which is incapable of pulling off a strike will not be very strong. So SEAJ & others have nothing to worry about in this respect.

couldn't get on mail for a while. here it is

Thanks!

How VERY appropriate....her standing in front of the Mascot for HSBC - Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corp!!

LMAO!
SEAJ

Legalizing prostitution in Hong Kong may lead to a similar situation to what happens in Singapore.  And trust me, nobody wants that.

Singapore has it's famous Geylang as an example, and the quality found there is suspect at best, at mid-high prices.  What that does is drive up the law enforcement against freelancers, and thus, the freelancers also give very poor value, and are quite expensive.

Singaporeans in most countries are seen as the biggest suckers when dealing with women, and from what I've seen, it's no surprise.  My friends there can regularly spend hundreds-thousands  of dollars and end up with blue balls.  

I've gone off topic here, but the gist of it is, let the industry police itself, the current system is not all that bad.  One only has to judge unions by looking at Canada and the US automakers.  Lazy workers, poor product, unjustified entitlement, bankruptcy.  Unions are for lazy people who are not competitive in the real world =)

I am definitely NOT into greater police scrutiny in my life, nor do I support unions in just about any form.  But I DO support the concept of truly legalizing prostitution (without the thousand loopholes in HK law that restricts it so much it might as well be illegal).  The entire concept is just the state trying to dictate my morals about sex between consenting adults.  Ummmm, fuck off with that!  The state really has no role to play in the decisions I make with my dick!  If they began to dictate who could cut your hair would you rise up and revolt?  It's the same thing.  Just a service.

Prostitution is simply two consenting adults making a service-for-pay transaction.  Why should this be any more dangerous (for me or her) or legally-spooky (for me or her) than her providing a haircut?  A hair-stylist works in a place with receptionists, other hair-stylists, accountants, cleaners, etc.  Why can't a hooker?  (Again, the Macau sauna's come to mind!  They got it right in Macau as far as this goes!).  

Even Markreyes' post about Singapore plays to my point:  the very fact that the freelancers in Singapore are targeted by LE even more because of the legal Geyland scene shows it is just not legal enough!  I find it silly beyond belief that it is illegal for a gal I meet in a bar to tell me she'll rock my world for 800HK - yet she can fuck me for free all nite long without any legal issues even occurring to anyone.  A civvie gal who fucks a lot of guys is just a "slut".  But if she accepts payment she is a criminal and perhaps both of us risk prosecution.  

And forget the tax issue.  Many industries have freelancers (IT, media, journalists, photographers, lawyers, etc. etc.)  - they report their own income and choose to be fully honest about it or not.  Many get audited and nailed for cheating on taxes, and many don't.  Same-same!

I think the union thing is a bit of a red herring.  Unions work well in large monolithic organizations, such as coal miners, the phone company, transit employees, etc.  And unions have their place - coal miners in England used to have terrible working conditions before unionisation, and while there are still accidents, things are a lot better now.  

But unions do not work at all at the retail level.  Look at restaurants, dry-cleaners, and so on.  Perfectly legal businesses, but you don't see rampant unionisation.  Why?  because as soon as one restaurant or dry cleaner's prices become uncompetitive they die.

Actually I think the sex industry would end up quite similar to the restaurant industry.  You would have the full range, from inexpensive hole in the wall diners, all the way up to the super exclusive, prices-not-on-the-menu top class clubs.

So yes, I support decriminalization because I don't like skulking around in the shadows.  Unions, however, are a completely unrelated issue.

I think the main difference here is that you don't have criminal syndicates kidnapping children to turn them into child hair stylists.

Before anybody goes off about how most sex workers in x and y country and doing so of their own free will, I'm not suggesting otherwise.

However, there is enough human trafficking worldwide that countries must make policy decisions to discourage such activity. And while imperfect in our eyes, our suggestions would look imperfect to theirs.  Self policing, and full regularization have pros and cons to both sides.

What I will say though, is that organizations such as brought up by the OP are shams and useless.  They are populated either by clueless fanatics or uncompetitive wgs, both of which don't add up to any meaningful gains in their endeavors, let alone success.  If they were properly staffed by professionals I might give them a chance, but as it is ... young idealistic girls and middle aged well-meaning guys who have never availed of such service, standing in mong kok handing flyers is just pathetic.

What's that saying?

You don't send a sheep to catch a wolf?

....and of course IMHO is that the "scene" in Hong Kong works fairly well...as "well" as I think it works in just about any part of the world. Legal, semi legal, illegal - whatever; in my POV it works just fine - COMPARATIVELY - just as it is - Would anybody really dispute this?

Why tinker with something that ain't broke?  

You want to change the way things are ELSEWHERE, probably more than justified, and of course Go To It Bro!  But howzabout leaving us be in our own ignorant bliss??
LOL!

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 9-1-2012 10:01 ]