Should we avoid punting in GZ now?

After his knife was taken away, he got mad in the MTR
cursing everyone in the metro.
With this we will get a bad reputation

watch the lin
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/mBPlPMxn2uA/

apparently drunk. He was looking for a beating imho. Don't need to make a scene. Knives are cheap.

next time, you should post stuff like this in the " news " section.

Indeed, I was very interested to see how someone pulled off a punt in the GZ mtr. That would be quite mad.

Anyone ever pick up a girl in the subway?

The thing is Laowais ALREADY have a bad reputation in HK and China, in that there are many of them who act as if they own the place as if it were still colonial times or something. Not all of them are like that but seeing a few of them now and again really leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Like the idiot australian who ran over a taxi driver after stealing a taxi who was surprised he got a jail term for it.

In my opinion, it's not that bad in China yet.  Most of the Laowais that are in China are businessmen. They are highly educated and respectful. What is bad is the Laowais in Philippines and in Thailand. Both places you will see drunken foreigners running around thinking they own the place.  These guys in Philippines and Thailand are mostly uneducated tourist. These guys are like frat boys love to drink, to have fun and party. NOT all foreigners in the Philippines and Thailand are like frat boys but it just takes a few to give a bad reputation and ruin for others.

Most of the laowais living in Shanghai are not business men anymore, rather young arrogant punks, probably similar to the ones u find in pi and bkk.  Alot of the laowai's in Sh are euro wankers, not all, but many.  I've got a very popular club in SH and I see them all.  Sorry Frenchy's but you guys are the worst in Shanghai, its like you guys have finally found a place where u don't get punked around by the locals and have took it to full advantage.

It sounds very possible, how things change fast.  The last time I was in Shanghai was over 6 years ago.  It is a little strange because places like Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong, living conditions like accommodations are expensive in these cities. OTH, the Philippines and Thailand are far cheaper places.

I don't think the Chinese in general has any animosity toward foreigners in general. There is however some underlying tension with Japan which may flare up and erupt rather quickly. Look at the incidents with the Dai Yu Islands. It is likewise in Japan as I have many friends there, the older generation bear a somewhat ill felling toward China which I cannot comprehend. These are very wealthy and rather influential people as well and once you get to know them better, they drop certain hints here and there that reflect their feeling toward China. Don't think the younger generation harbor such sentiment.

I agree, I have travelled in HK and parts of Mainland China (PRD area, Fujian, Shanghai, Shandong) extensively and am always made to feel welcome, even by people I am not doing business with. In some less sophisticated areas one may encounter a "little" resentment (curiosity is probably a better word) but I think that "resentment" from people with "little" is directed at anyone who they perceive has "more"... Chinese and Foreigners, and that's not unique to China... that is universal. Overwhelmingly though, I dont see any significant evidence of racism toward Foreigners. I do agree Geo that there is sometimes an underlying feeling toward Japanese.


Totally disagree. I can't imagine where you are coming from with this. Especially HK... can't agree. I'd very much like to here from Chinese Bros currently LIVING in HK and China re their thoughts on this.

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 23-12-2010 10:32 ]

Basically, those of us who have lived in Hong Kong a long time, can easily remember many instances IN THE PAST when foreigners DID act all superior and with a colonialist attitude. This being so, we are very much more aware of such behaviour even if insignificant/small instances.

Like-wise, Foreigners - especially recent arrivals - are probably unaware that there is such history and underlying emotion - and don't even realize that they had said or done something which is perceived as being colonialist's.

These are things like speaking English s-l-o-w-l-y and LOUD -as if the local counter party is both Dumb AND Deaf, correcting wrong English pronunciations/grammar, saying things like "In my country... or at home.... or in civilized countries etc, we do it....." or "Why is it in Hong Kong(or China or??) that it's like this whilst it should be..."

The list goes on - but me-thinks enough for you to understand the basis for Kennichi's (and I guess my) assertion.  Plus you also have to remember, that not all foreigners (just like ANY group of people) are urbane, non-bigoted and sensible. There's ALWAYS idiots anywhere and in any group.

SEAJ

Sorry - I don't agree with this statement either!!

Whether you call it Nationalism, Xenophobia, or just outright bigotry - there IS still an underlying current of tension within China against foreigners....and outright animosity flaring up periodically.

This all was begat from China's terrible experience with the Foreign "Concessions" areas, and also with quite recent history with the way the USA, Japan, GB even Taiwan etc etc treated China as a backward and quite "native" country....even to as late as the mid to late eighties. A bit of resentment coupled with a bit of Inferiority complex turned into full blown hate of things foreign. Ironically, the new generation Chinese has to a certain extent turned into a group of young people with marked Superiority Complex based upon the pride with which they now regard their Nation!

Now add into this cauldron of emotions the periodic "putsch" with which the Powers that Be in China sometimes provoke their populace with - (and equally in some instances, just an unprovoked, spontaneous and co-incidental meeting of hot young minds!) - you DO see outright protests, demonstrations and even violence against foreigners and foreign businesses and interests.  And these kind of things happens quite periodically and quite often.

And we've also heard about the roving young Chinese gangs in Shenzhen showing stupid bravado and getting violent with foreigners - for no reason whatsoever.  

So, yes, to me there IS animosity shown to foreigners SOME TIMES and BY SOME PEOPLE in China

SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 25-12-2010 19:01 ]

Addendum to the 2 above posts!

Let's face it, we Chinese ARE very bigoted!  

Even amongst Han Chinese ourselves there's bigotry - The Cantonese thinks the Shanghainese as tricky mercenaries, The Northerners as brusque and rough, the Shanghainese thinks the Cantonese are short dark skinned coolies, the Beijingers as arrogant, never mind what we think about people from our own country's Xinjiang province - and horror of horrors - FURRENERS!!

And such bigotry is based upon so many different factors - economic well being, shades of color of skin, our own definition of beauty, weird (to a grouping's eyes) religious, culinary, personal hygiene and habits... the list goes on. But just take it as a well known fact - We Chinese are quite bigoted! And quite dismissive and disdainful of matters that is NOT in our own definition - Proper and OK!  LOL!

Sorry - but that's just the way it is.  The one saving grace in all this is that for the most part, we Chinese realize this ourselves and are actually quite bemused by our own failings - to the point that all this results in our brand of bigotry to be quite benign and NOT militant/offensive as bigotry can be in other parts of the world.

Jeez - this topic would have been great in my previoulsy proposed (and you guys shot down) chat site!  
A POX on you guys!
LOL
SEAJ

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 26-12-2010 01:03 ]

theres people like this everywhere..

so i dont see anything new..

this thread should be moved to the news section

Joe,

I'd like to clarify that my experience and therefore my comment is limited to the last 20 years and especially the last 15 where I have travelled to HK 8 - 10 times a year, about a third of those times I have also visited China. As you know, I am not Chinese.

Kennichi's post refers to how Foreigners "ALREADY" have a bad rep in HK and China, suggesting that this is the current climate.


"Many" of "them"...???  I totally disagree.

In fact I sense a racial undertone toward foreigners in that post far greater than anything I have been subjected to in HK or China in recent memory. Keep in mind, I am a "member" of the group who according to Kennichi "act as if they own the place as if it were still colonial times or something"... and according to Kennichi, there's not just 1 or 2 of us behaving that way... "MANY" of us behave that way. With all due respect... BULLSHIT! I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I know it does, the obnoxious foreign tourist, the loud mouth out of town business man, they all exist... they exist in HK and China just as they exist in many Western countries including my own, and they are made up of ALL variety of ethnicity... including Chinese.

Don't get me wrong, I "cringe" when I see a foreigner in HK saying "W H E R E     C A N      I     C A T C H      A       TAXI?" in an overly loud and slow voice. Shit, they're probably talking to someone better educated than they are! Not to mention the "Why is it in Hong Kong(or China or??) that it's like this whilst it should be..."  issue, it's a little embarrassing to be totally open about it. However it is NOT unique to foreigners travelling to HK and China. I see variations of it from all ethnicities all over the world.

In terms of the "in my country we..." issue, I am OFTEN asked questions about my country, how we do this and that. There is a genuine interest.

In terms of the "intra China bigotry" you refer to, yes I am aware of that. When local staff in my HK office tell me they dont like me doing business with Yiwu and when I ask "why?" they tell me it's because you "cant trust people from Yiwu!" it's quite clear. However that is also NOT exclusive to China... for example people in European countries can sometimes have similar feelings about each other, France & England for example. Even within the one country it exists, Milan and Calabria in Italy for example...

The point I am making, "ignorance" and "racism" is not exclusive to any one country or ethnicity. It's everywhere. Including this thread which is a shame.

In terms of the suggested "anti foreigner sentiment" in Hong Kong. I strongly disagree. I am not saying it doesn't exist, it exists in HK just like it exists in other countries. I am saying that HK doesn't have any greater degree of "ignorance" or "racism" towards foreigners... and I am a foreigner who travels to Asia, Europe and North America so I have some insight.

I'd rather this thread have a different name... for example, instead of "Mad forgeiner in GZ mtr"... perhaps "Mad idiot in GZ mtr".

In terms of Geo's comments:


I think Geo's comments above are a far more accurate representation of reality.

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 26-12-2010 08:54 ]

Good clarification there TT. The Chinese tension with the Japanese stems somewhat from the Japanese Government's refusal to revise text books to portray a truer and clear picture of the crimes that were committed against the Chinese during the invasion of 'Manchukuo' and most parts of China, This is unlike Germany that have portrayed the true facts of the Third Reich so such awful crimes of genocide are never committed again. In German schools, children are taught to be humble and receptive to all foreign cultures while during the period when Hitler was fuhrer , children were taught they were No.1 and all other races were inferior.

I have been to Changchun and seen some of the torture camps and also UNIT 731. In fact, Changchun was built mostly by the Japanese and looks like a city in Japan, rather than China. The palace in Changchun built for Emperor Hirohito which was not completed in time because the Japanese had lost the war is almost as big as the Imperial Palace in Tokyo. Yes, there is great tension with the Japanese and the recurring visit by lawmakers to the Yasukumi Shrine in Tokyo is an example. The visit would always  incense China and South Korea, which suffered heavily under Japan’s colonial aggression last century and have repeatedly complained that such trips by Japanese leaders reflect the nation’s lack of remorse for its past behavior.

With the Japanese dislike for the Chinese (and IMO Koreans) mentioned above, I can only assume this stems from the fact that they felt they were unjustly evicted from countries which were already part of their Imperial kingdom. They were evicted not by the Chinese and Koreans who were considered as sub humans but by unfair treaties signed by Foreign nations after the War.

With the comments about Laowais by kennichi, I think this is rather dated and this line of thinking probably came from comments by elderly relatives. This colonial attitude was very evident in the 60's and the 70's when some colonials still felt that Britannia Rule the Seas but I have not experienced anything like this myself in a very long time. In fact the word Colonial is no longer kosher and seldom used these days. Note that the famous cemetery in Happy Valley used to be called the Colonial Cemetery and in the early 90s renamed to the Hong Kong Cemetery. The name change  was never even publicized by done very discretely and most people hardly noticed this. I did because I used to visit this place several times a year to pay respects to my ancestors who are buried there.

[ Last edited by  geoduck at 26-12-2010 08:40 ]

Attitudes, biases and prejudices doesn't disappear overnight.

Traditionally, China - THE Middle Kingdom - considered itself to be a civilized society surrounded by barbarians; never mind the being left behind then with such attitude, never mind its head in the sand approach - but yes, do know the sense of shame and anger at its laggard and even servile position eventually.  To the point where Mao went ahead and just isolated China from the rest of the world - pretty well the same approach taken by North Korea now. Shame, frustration, envy and thus anger.

Then there's Hong Kong and its 150 odd years under British Colonial stewardship - and only what 13 or so years under China rule?  Rule when China itself is still trying to assert itself on the International front.

Then there is Tony the frequent visitor to China and Hong Kong - but one who's habitue seems to only consist of Wanchai, Hari's bar and his own office - enclaves of foreign influence? And you telling me what the Chinese - in Hong Kong as well as China - is all about?!
Get real Tony!

Hong Kong is Hong Kong - and the same with China - and I certainly am not making any apologies over it - for it is what it is.  And as for your assertion that it's on this board that you are encountering bigotry - well, think about the times they call you Kwai Lo - do you ever even think what it actually means and the weight of disdain it carries when spoken? Or is it = Oh cute, haha?

And a disclaimer - I do NOT subscribe to ANY bigotry/racism myself - I'm just telling you that it is what it is here.

SEAJ

No one said they do Joe.


You're miles away from reality Joe. Miles away...

Your assertion that one MUST be Chinese and living in HK / China to understand what motivates people there, what they are thinking and what influences them etc is out dated. I cant say it any more simply than you are wrong. You are welcome to have an opinion about the existence of racism... and so am I. I'm not talking about whether or not your opinion is right or wrong, it's your opinion which is fine, I am specifically talking about any suggestion that I can't have a valid opinion on this subject simply because I am not Chinese and don't live in HK / China. In the simplest terms, I could ask people who live in HK / China and get the information from them. I could also work for a company that spends a lot of money to know the answers to these questions...?

In any case, I am not sitting on a deck chair in the MTR taking notes and making my own assumptions, nor I am confined to punting bars or offices of Western companies. My business dealings are not limited to being with other foreigners. My business partners are not limited to foreigners. My friends and colleagues are not limited to foreigners. Yes I do venture to areas that are not frequented by foreigners... in both China and HK. I am NOT saying that I am an "expert" on all things Chinese, far from it. I am simply asking you to reconsider your attitude about my opinion on subjects such as this... I also ask that you re read my post #15 and find where you suggest I believe I know exactly what Chinese in HK and China think about this subject. I think a more careful, less emotional study will show I am primarily talking about my personal experiences... have I felt racially vilified in HK and China? How I feel based on what has happened to me? I have NOT said... "this is what Chinese people think!" Your comment below is out of line.


So, back to the subject. As someone who is in the "victim" category of the supposed racism we are talking about, I can say something you cant Joe... as a foreigner... I dont feel the racism! I also dont see it. Now as I said in my previous post, I am NOT saying it doesn't exist, I am saying that ignorance and racism towards foreigners exists in HK to a similar extent it exists elsewhere. Certainly not to any extent one would need to isolate HK as a place that is racist against foreigners as has been suggested in this thread.

In terms of Kennichi's comment:


First, something you should know... to suggest that "many" foreigners currently behave this way in HK and China is just wrong. I am not saying it doesn't happen, every race has their idiots. To suggest that is prolific enough to say "many foreigners behave this way..." is nonsense. If you get around Joe, you will know that. Now something you couldn't know... as a foreigner, I find this comment from Kennichi (about "most foreigners"... ) to have a greater racial undertone than any supposed racism I have experience in HK or China in recent memory.

And to satisfy your curiosity, yes thanks so much for asking, I understand the term Kwai lo. I understand both it's colloquial meaning and it's literal meaning. China doesn't have a copyright on "interesting" names for other ethnicities. It really doesn't bother me.

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 26-12-2010 18:37 ]

Tony - I stand by my statement:
"And you telling me what the Chinese - in Hong Kong as well as China - is all about?! Get real Tony!"
You're NOT Chinese - how is it that you can tell me what it is to be Chinese? You could even be married to a Chinese or lived in Hong Kong or your life - but the simple fact is that you are NOT Chinese!

I'd be the first person to speak out AGAINST any form of racism, prejudice or bigotry - having been on the blunt end of many a hurtful encounters in the various localities I've lived at. And I'm certainly not proud of certain facts about us Chinese - but the truth of the matter is that we ARE quite racist. I of course hope that with time, all this will change - but as it is right now today, this is still the fact.

Yes racism a'la Chinese is very much more subtle than that shown in other parts of the world. But your statement "...Overwhelmingly though, I dont see any significant evidence of racism toward Foreigners...." is quite telling as it shows the depth of your inability to grasp such nuances - and confirms how little you really do know about how the Chinese in the majority think and feel.

SEAJ
edit Ps - pls allow me to C+P what I wrote above to emphasize how "colonialist behaviour" is perceived from opposing sides
"..Basically, those of us who have lived in Hong Kong a long time, can easily remember many instances IN THE PAST when foreigners DID act all superior and with a colonialist attitude. This being so, we are very much more aware of such behaviour even if insignificant/small instances.

Like-wise, Foreigners - especially recent arrivals - are probably unaware that there is such history and underlying emotion - and don't even realize that they had said or done something which is perceived as being colonialist's.

[ Last edited by  SEAJ at 26-12-2010 18:43 ]

Joe, your response to my post #15. Please show me where in post #15 I have tried to tell you what it is to be Chinese.


I have to disagree here as well. First, you need take my statement IN it's proper context. I am very clear on this. I do NOT think HK is especially racist. I do NOT think that "many" foreigners act like they "own the place" and as a result I do NOT think there is any specific racism toward foreigners.

I think your inability to grasp the nuances confirms you have not properly read my posts, probably because there are no RA pics attached.

I also draw your attention to Bro Geoduck who agrees with me. Does Geo's "inability to grasp such nuances - confirm how little he really do knows about how the Chinese think???"


I dont believe the above C & P relates to this discussion because I am specifically talking about 3 things:
(1) The last 20 years.
(2) Bro Kennichi's assertion that "many" Foreigners "still" behave that way.
(3) Bro Kennichi's assertion that because "many" Foreigners "still" behave that way... there is a racist undertone in HK against Foreigners.

[ Last edited by  TonyToro at 26-12-2010 19:01 ]