I recently relocated to mainland China for work. As I am here all alone, and the borders are closed, I have been exploring my options for quick and easy encounters (as my two recent newbie reports would indicate).

Having gotten the lay of the land in Shenzhen, if not all of mainland China, I have a few questions regarding safety. Keep in mind that I really do not want to lose my job here. I enjoy it quite a lot, and it would definitely cause me problems back home if I lost it.

- Adding WGs on WeChat: Is this a bad idea? I have two of them on there now - one spa girl (who I hope to eventually report on here, once it's safer and I have her permission) as well as a FL who seemingly took a liking to me. Any dos and don'ts regarding WeChat communication?

- I went to a spa the other day that offers pretty much everything short of FS, and they had me scan a health code and took a photograph of my passport at the reception. I figure that this is just because they're fronting as a legit massage place (and I technically did pay for a massage), but it's kind of nerve-wracking knowing that if they ever get busted, the Gong An will know that I have been there multiple times. This same spa also has a behind-the-counter card they show which clearly states that the massage includes a hand job (which, btw, is reeeeeally underselling what actually goes on, but that's a topic for another post).

- Security cameras: they're absolutely everywhere. It would be pretty trivial for the cops to just look at the area where they know all the pimps and prostitutes hang out and see who goes to visit them. I know that masks and glasses fool facial recognition pretty well, but they could literally just use the cameras to trace everyone back to their home/hotel and just go round them all up the next day. This worried me more the first time I punted here, as I was almost expecting the police to show up at my place of work the next week. It also worries me in situations where money changes hands on the street. I have no doubt that the police know exactly what I've been up to in Shenzhen, or could find out if they put a little effort into it. The question is, why don't they.

- Posts on this forum: so far, whenever I post anything, I've attempted to be ambiguous about the dates, and to avoid posting any details that could be used to identify me. The other reason I'm holding off on posting about the spa that I mentioned above is because there are currently relatively few foreigners in China, and I suspect that anyone with access to the list of people who checked into that spa could figure out who I was quite easily. Am I right to be somewhat paranoid in that regard?

And finally...

- Does your legal status in China affect your odds of getting busted? As in, for those of us who are foreigners with a work visa, are we more likely to get in trouble than someone who is here as a tourist? (not that there are any tourists right now) Does the nature of our work affect how likely we are to get in trouble? My second biggest worry after getting arrested is having the police contact my boss and tell him what I've been up to.

Don't type the word Government in Wechat or criticize it. Your account would be highlighted for inspection. Keep low profile. White Youtuber who kept on reporting bad side of China get harassed by police often and eventually had to leave China. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS9M8PWB9GM . According to this guy who has a high profile, he does get targeted and harassed by police and elderly citizens. Citizens get social credit for reporting crimes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVkWokLqPOg. But these two Youtubers are known for picking negatives of China so their videos would be biased. there are loads of White guys who post positive videos of China , but they are just boring.

[ Last edited by  Bloodrage at 31-12-2020 03:50 ]

Unless you are in a high profile position, you should be fine. Of course this also means you use common sense while punting. Lots of bros comment on punting in China without problems. But it is certainly not as easy as Hong Kong or other countries in Southeast Asia. Stay safe bro

To try and help to answer:

- Adding WGs on WeChat: Is this a bad idea?

I do not think this is a bad idea, just use common sense. I have had a few on WeChat and as long as you are not doing anything to raise suspicion as some people have said (government talk) then you should be OK.

- I went to a spa the other day that offers pretty much everything short of FS, and they had me scan a health code and took a photograph of my passport at the reception. I figure that this is just because they're fronting as a legit massage place (and I technically did pay for a massage), but it's kind of nerve-wracking knowing that if they ever get busted, the Gong An will know that I have been there multiple times. This same spa also has a behind-the-counter card they show which clearly states that the massage includes a hand job (which, btw, is reeeeeally underselling what actually goes on, but that's a topic for another post).

I would love to know which SPA lol I have visited a couple, one I had to scan and other I didn't. But I pay cash and if they offer legit massages then it should be OK.

- Security cameras: they're absolutely everywhere. It would be pretty trivial for the cops to just look at the area where they know all the pimps and prostitutes hang out and see who goes to visit them. I know that masks and glasses fool facial recognition pretty well, but they could literally just use the cameras to trace everyone back to their home/hotel and just go round them all up the next day. This worried me more the first time I punted here, as I was almost expecting the police to show up at my place of work the next week. It also worries me in situations where money changes hands on the street. I have no doubt that the police know exactly what I've been up to in Shenzhen, or could find out if they put a little effort into it. The question is, why don't they.

The question is, why would they want to? The local police know what is going on and probably getting kick backs somewhere along the line. I have heard of local bars here in Nanshan being shut down or punished for NOT giving kickbacks. I am sure the Police have more things to worry about than finding punters just for the sake of it.

- Posts on this forum: so far, whenever I post anything, I've attempted to be ambiguous about the dates, and to avoid posting any details that could be used to identify me. The other reason I'm holding off on posting about the spa that I mentioned above is because there are currently relatively few foreigners in China, and I suspect that anyone with access to the list of people who checked into that spa could figure out who I was quite easily. Am I right to be somewhat paranoid in that regard?

overly paranoid IMHO

- Does your legal status in China affect your odds of getting busted? As in, for those of us who are foreigners with a work visa, are we more likely to get in trouble than someone who is here as a tourist? (not that there are any tourists right now) Does the nature of our work affect how likely we are to get in trouble? My second biggest worry after getting arrested is having the police contact my boss and tell him what I've been up to.

No, legal status does not matter. You are better off than most foreigners here who are pretty much working illegally lol if you're paying your taxes and working. You should be fine.

Sorry, but everything in this post is wrong. It's the kind of stuff you read on CNN that doesn't actually exist in real life.

My mates and I have a massive chatroom on WeChat of almost 100+ people who talk politics 24/7. Some of it is pro-China, others definitely not. We've never had an issue, and 90% of the people in the chatroom live in mainland China.
There's always rumors swirling around about algorithms that will pick up on certain words in Chinese, but so far I've not heard of a single person who's fallen foul of this. And no one in our WeChat group has either.

Second, there's no such thing as a "social credit system", at least not in the way CNN is feeding it to you. If you're a business or you have loans and don't pay them, you get a bad mark on your credit score. That's the current extent of the system. There's rumors that it may go further, but so far nothing has been implemented on a national scale.

As for WeChat safety, here's what it comes down to:

If a WG or John gets caught in the act, then their WeChat history will be used as proof in court of their business deal. Even if you delete the chat, it doesn't matter, they will just pull the history from the servers.
Everyone knows this (at least all the professional WG) so they avoid talking too openly. Some risk it cause it's too hard to do business otherwise. Either way, your WeChat is a serious liability, but only if you're caught red-handed (or red-cocked rather).

Have a story I've not shared elsewhere...
A single, elderly friend was approaching the age of non-visa renewal. He was very quiet and had apparently only had a visit from a select number of WG's few and far between. The police visited him during a crackdown and kept him for a few weeks in prison - was not so bad, but the pressure put on him to sign some sort of confession was high and was apparently going to make everything go away.

He signed

It didn't

He was deported - the embassy did nothing, his workplace fired him and he left disgraced as far as he was concerned. Part of some mayor's crackdown party.

The takeaways. Its not fair... don't sign anything, if u're in mainland China you always should have one foot outside of the country.

I'd suggest best approach is to always visit an external place - if you can separate your own life from mongering, do it as much as possible.

Wow, thanks for the information. That's scary!

I've got some follow-up questions about this incident, if you don't mind:

- By "visited by WGs," do you mean they were at his house? Or at a hotel where he was staying?

- Did this all happen in the same jurisdiction that he worked? The same province? Or was this in another part of the country entirely?

Obviously we shouldn't shit where we eat, but I'm wondering how wide "where we eat" is. Is it the prefecture, province, or the entire country? Like, if, hypothetically, I live in Guangzhou but go to punt in Shenzhen, would the Shenzhen cops come to Guangzhou to nab me? Or would they only be concerned with people who are both living and punting in Shenzhen? My instinct tells me that the farther away from home we go, the better.

Anyway, no worries if you don't know the answers to these questions, but I just thought I'd ask.

yeah he had them over to his apartment which was the same location as where he worked and turns out has a very pro-active council. It happened in that August-October crackdown in Shanghai that always seems to happen ahead of the 'Ethics' Committee meeting that happens.

I agree with you that jurisdiction was likely close to home, I get the feeling that there is also a lot of benefit from not locking to one location or same places and are always looking to find new places or be spontaneous on where you travel to. Depends on the frequency I guess. I don't imagine they would chase you across provinces or even across 'suburbs' for that matter. LE seem very disjointed and feel no need to communicate info with each other.

I also have a theory that the WG was compromised and pressured by LE to share information however they didn't seem to have any 'evidence' until/unless he signed something.



I

Adding WGs is not a problem. I normally do not use 'direct' terms when communicating with WGs via WeChat, but I have local friends who do and never got into trouble. However, be careful in group chats. As a general rule, do not discuss soliciting or government criticism in group chats, as someone could report you and you could land into trouble (WeChat account suspended or possibly worse).


This I also hate, but frankly is not something to worry about. If you become a regular at a certain place you'll (often) have the benefit of not needing to register. As for LE, they will not target you because you've been to a certain massage place in the past. What could happen is that LE raids the place while you're in a session. In this case a bright light will turn on in the massage room, and you'll have to quickly put on pants. The WG will then continue with a veggie massage or end the service completely.


When punting in sex alleys it's a good practice to wear a mask. Not necessarily because of government cameras, but because of civilians filming with undercover cameras to promote the WG locations online. Being caught by LE would mean being caught in person. So that would be either on opportunity (patrol catches you soliciting) or planned setup (the government is upset with you and wants to pin something on you). Either of them are very unlikely, as there will be guys looking out for patrol and the government is not interested in some random guy.


This I would not worry about.


No. In the very unlikely event that you were caught by LE, worst case would be being locked up for a maximum of 15 days. In that case it's up to you to decide whether LE communicates your reason of detention with your employer or family. This detention should not affect your visa or ability to get visas in the future. But with increasing societal pressure condemning the enforcement of anti-prostitution laws, non-CCP members being detained for punting is extremely rare.

Thanks for asking such details question because I benefit from all the reply by experience bros.

My wechat has been flagged before.
It was logged out and banned for 24 hours for soliciting.
I shit you not, it freaked me out because it's my personal wechat and has a lot of my work shit on there.

So now, I just use QQ to add them all.

I agree that you should be ok as long as you are not flagged by government AI screening the WeChat.  For example, June 4th, 1989 will get flagged by the AI.  In addition, US Universities operating in China have to be careful on how they teach and work around certain subject matters to meet the government’s information distribution requirements.  Friends of mine in China are using VPN to learn remotely in US Universities during COVID, because of the “great firewall”. However, remote learning for internal Chinese schools have run across AI issues incorrectly flagging certain words as a violation but actually was not.  The AI is not perfect and there is always a chance you get into trouble in an imperfect AI flag.  I am doubtful it will happen but is possible.

Under the Chinese National Security Law, it is incredibly broad on its powers, including having companies conducting business in China to handover its data.  At some stage this will be expanded into Hong Kong and Macau once the PRC feels they do so without economic consequences.  Unless you get suspected as a terrorist or working with a foreign government to disrupt the PRC, I would not be concerned.

Like all countries, foreigners are not given the benefit of the doubt.  The benefits of “homefield advantage” goes to the local residents.  Anywhere in the world (and sometimes in a neighboring state/province/county in your own country) generally follows this rule.

I don’t see how using WeChat seeking a WG would be a problem unless they are either specifically looking for you or the WG or the AI mistakes something in your conversation.

This conversation has got me curious.
In the US, it's easy for me to get a burner phone, which I use to monger with.
Other than the phone being in my possession, there's nothing on it or the accounts that can be tied to me, short of asking Google to run IP checks and comparing IP checks with my other google account.

Is it easy to get a burner in China?
Say something like a tourist SIM card?

Since I can't speak Chinese, I normally just go to spas that I found from online information, so never had to get a SIM card myself.

This is about the telecommunication network.  In the US, all the telecommunication companies are privately owned with low level of regulations.  The Telecommunication Act of 1994 highly deregulated the telecommunication industry, including technology that was very early on for commercial development such as cell phones. The telecommunications industry controls the entire network and communications and what goes through them.  Since they are privately owned, the US government will need a court order to access information that is not publicly available.  Cell phone numbers are owned by cell phone companies and they buy those in bulk from the FCC.  The burner phones numbers are owned by the cell phone company and are intentionally or unintentionally designed to be difficult to be traced.  

Not to make you paranoid, but the you can have phone apps that have spyware, and the firmware and operating in the phone could be collecting information.  You just have to trust that the product you have are not being used in this way, and to have good knowledge about the apps you download onto your phone.  This can include information like who you call, what networks your phone is hooked into and GPS.  There is real concern about using cell phone Bluetooth for COVUD-19 contract tracing is a major debate among civil liberties organizations.  Should cell phones be telling each other by Bluetooth who and where they are for contact tracing purposes?  This is already being piloted in other countries.  There are plenty of technology news articles, bloggers and reviews that you can find to read about different products.

In other countries where the government owns or part owns, or there is a telecommunications monopoly, it is possible that the company and/or the government can monitor who has phone number and the communications going through there.  The challenge is volume.  You need an AI and sufficient processing power that can sort out all that information flowing through the system to find what you are looking for.  The is one of the questions about future of quantum computing and how it will advance AI and how it impacts the effectiveness of encryption software.

Here is an interesting summary about a drug cartel actually building and owning their telecommunication network.  It is a bit of interesting trivia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e8MHfVxtyU

As all of you, on January 6, there was a riot in Washington DC, where thousands of people stormed Capitol Hill and a violence broke out.  

The FBI has been using cell phone signals "pinged" off of the cell towers built in the Capitol Building and the WiFi to find people that were there.  This combined with news footage, rioters' social media and security cameras has the FBI chasing people all over the US.  

Using cell phone technology to find people is not perfect.  They can identity people's phones in vicinity of the cell phone tower.  This does not mean they are looking for you specifically.  You did not have to be in the riot to be close enough to connect to the cell phone tower.  The FBI has been questioning everyone's phone that comes up as a precaution.  

Now if this can be done in the USA, you can bet this can be done anywhere, especially countries where the government controls the telecommunication network.

Please find this story on someone who was near the riot but turned away by police for her and her family's safety but the cell phone "pinged" the cell tower.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/fe ... 4-8b88-943a8517343a


Producer's Picks
DC residents get visits from FBI as agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol
A DC woman said an FBI agent contacted her and said investigators were reaching out to the owner of every phone that touched a cell tower near the riot.
Author: Bruce Leshan
Published: 7:45 PM EST January 19, 2021
Updated: 7:45 PM EST January 19, 2021
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WASHINGTON — If you were anywhere near the Capitol on Jan. 6, you may be getting a knock on your door from the FBI.

A D.C. woman said an agent visited her neighbor and called her, telling them investigators were tracking people whose cell phones connected to wi-fi or pinged cell phone towers near the Capitol during the riots.

"They don't call first, they just come to your house," Bree Stevens, a legal investigator who lives near Capitol Hill, said.

Stevens said an FBI agent told her they were reaching out to every single person whose cell phone put them near the Capitol during the riots.

She was out for a walk with a friend and his two young daughters on the afternoon of Jan. 6, but they were diverted by bomb scares until they ended up right next to the insurrection. Adults and kids were cordoned off and unable to get back to their apartments for four hours.

"You don't want to be anywhere where they're going to go!" she said on a video she shot while police officers in riot gear quick-stepped toward the Capitol.


Monday night, an investigator knocked on the door of her friend's apartment, who was "in house clothes" at the time.

"His little girl had just painted his toenails, that was a little bit embarrassing," Stevens said.

Stevens was out of town, so the agent called her on the phone number that the FBI had tracked.

"Extremely creepy, because he explained that they have everyone’s phone number from pinging off the cell phone towers, and they know basically exactly where you were, within the vicinity of the Capitol," Stevens said. "And they can actually pinpoint on Google Maps exactly where you were standing. Like, he knew where I was standing on the sidewalk, like specifically, based on my cell phone ping."

Stevens said the agent told her she wasn't a suspect, but said he wanted pictures of things she might have seen.

Some civil rights advocates are concerned about the FBI's surveillance power.

When contacted, the FBI declined to discuss its investigative methods.

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