I agreed, it is usual, the girl changes her mind always.  But, the story on this case is different from that.  Please take a look on the whole story on Goose.

I understand your viewpoint.  But, please look into this case particularly.  It is not showing the report/photos to the girl.  It is about the comment on Goose's action in one of the report posting.

Please take a look on my reply at #79 and #80, it shows my main point on this discussion.

As I know, when Goose did the first reply to the reporter, he didn't check with the girl yet... He clarified with the her after the reply from the reporter.  Just some correction on this.

These days whenever anyone asked me if they can share anything with their friends, I immediately assume that my advice, my photo, or info is going out to the web as most ppl share everything on Facebook. I treat anything posted on Facebook on the similar grounds as reports posted here.


Hence when the wg refused to allow me to take her pic after I told her I wanted to share with my friends, she was making the same assumption as above that her pics will be posted onto the web. So I was not being underhanded or sly at all when I asked her. Once she refused, I respected her decision and did not push her.

Let me explain my viewpoint on vice verse... if someone see my report and saying that the girl only provide LFK, it means the bro go to see the girl will not force to try DFK, the girl will not hestiate to refuse or avoid that.  The girl will be more comfortable on the time with bro.

RESPECT is everywhere, no matter the bros and WG, no doubt on that, this is my principle.  That's why I don't like personal attack at all, just want a fair judgement always.

May be my main point on the original reply is different from the current discussion, I was looking at the comment to Goose's action.

Sorry but at the end of they day you are taking a WG's word over a guys. She could be lying for all you know!

To harsh having 3 guys ganging up on him.

I am sorry but if senior guys on here think that every member says:

"Hey let me take your picture"

"OK" - Girls agrees

"By the way these are going on the forum"....

DON'T THINK SO!

For a start how can a girl agree for them to go on a forum if they do not speak the same language????

If the pictures are a high RA then how did she see them in the first place?

Someone obviously showed her them, then probably the report too!

Sorry Happpy, for I really am not sure what you actually mean. And really, why is it that its you and not Goose himself addressing all this - which is directly related to him?

I have always appreciated your always polite and conciliatory manner no matter what the situation is; and your reports - always first class and always wondered why you would have stopped posting on this side; especially given the fact that we on this side for the most part have NOT previously had problems with bros MISusing reports for their own nefarious purposes. Until now of course  - and I am actually very appalled that as experienced and senior as Goose is, that he would instead be the perpetrator of such action.

And again I apologize - but how is it that its "...not right to comment Goose under 'What happens in this forum, stay in this forum'...?"  He stated "..One just have to embrace that it is a fact of life in the HG industry and the way it has evolved! In my opinion, once a OP posts his report on the internet, it is "free for all", whether there is a high RA or not. "

Perhaps NOT fair for me to ask you - and perhaps best if Goose should be the one to reply.

SEAJ

Happy - there were three issues here which disturbed me.

1. Whilst I may not have previously asked for permission from the HGs to post/share the photos (as I have repeatedly said), I HAVE always asked for their permission. This was clear in the previous photos I have posted. Why suddenly would I take photos of a girl that didn't want them taken and share them? It goes against everything I have done so far since I joined this forum. Did I need the K's that badly??? I already had a 50RA - what does it matter once you get to around 40/50?

I should have been given the benefit of the doubt. As I have said time and again, I have always asked for permission to TAKE the photos of any girl whose pics I have shared. I have NEVER asked for permission to share them.



2. Goose or any other member who felt uncomfortable could always have PMed me and kept this private if he (or any other member) was questioning the validity of the pics or felt truly uncomfortable with them being shared (be it because he knew the WG or not). I'm reasonable that way - if the member could have convinced me that I was in the wrong, I would have taken them down ASAP [which as you'll note, I did do].

I didn't get that. I just got very short replies from Goose via negative Ks stating I should take the pic and that I did not have permission to post/take it. Eventually, he posted a lengthy reply in the original thread - to which I agreed. I was and have been in the wrong regarding this issue. If he'd have sent me that reply in an initial PM, then things wouldn't have 'blown over'.

What I didn't appreciate was the ganging up and branding me a liar in 'public'. This goes back to point #1. I've been on the forum for a bit now and tried my best to share info. Yes, it hasn't always been entirely 'honest' ["Hey, that photo I took of you with my cock down your throat - mind if I put that on a forum for everyone to see? You might get more customers!"] but as I have stated time and again, I HAVE ALWAYS ASKED FOR PERMISSION TO TAKE THE PHOTOS.

Why would I suddenly go against that? As someone who has been on the forum, probably not for very long in terms of time, but certainly to an extent in terms of what I have contributed, I should have been given the benefit of the doubt. I am disappointed I was not. Yes, the girl, a friend of Goose's, needed protection - but all it would have taken is a simple detailed PM!

If I do wrong again in the future on the forum, just drop me a PM and let me know with a reasonably detailed explanation what it is I have done wrong.




3. Obviously the pics/report was shared with the girl. This has been discussed in great length on the forum.




One thing I would like to point out is that once I have posted the pics, I delete them from my hardware - computer and phone. So theoretically, the chance of them being shared on a public forum with no RAs or anything are low. In that sense, the girl's identity is protected.

So yes, whilst I have shared the photos on the Internet, they are done so with appropriately high RAs on a specific forum only. Now, if the bros are true to their word, then these pics should not be re-shared anywhere else or no one without the appropriate RA should be able to see them.


So basically, the girl's identity CAN be protected if the bros are to be trusted. Are the bros to be trusted?

[ Last edited by  fjackass at 16-12-2011 23:58 ]

The mods will be coming up with clearer guidelines which, hopefully, will prevent something like this happening again

edit
I'm talking about posting pictures guidelines

[ Last edited by  twiceAweek at 17-12-2011 00:43 ]

I read, but didnt not have time to reply to these issues during the week - but thought I'd give my thoughts on what seems to be the two important points being raised by these pictures.

1) What constitutes "permissible" photo graphs to post on this forum.  Obviously pictures taken without permission is wrong, that's fine.  The question whether you need the WG to give a "share pictures" permission is more difficult.  Personally, I have in the past only gotten the "take pictures" permission and never asked for the "share pictures" permission, which some here seems to think means only for my own consumption.  If that is in error - would be good to know.

My personal opinion is that it seems unnecessarily obstructing the spirit of the forum, which is to allow us to get honest views about the WG before we visit and spend our money. To go through the process of asking for "share permission" with each WG you visit is counter to that, because WG would be much less likely to allow sharing after a bad service (since they now know the picture is going to be used for a not-great review) and thus would just skew pictures, which make a big impression, to good reviews.  I mean, even asking for pictures skews that, but asking for sharing permission would make it worse.  Overall, it would not help present a fair view of the field of possibilities.

However, this is only a really small gripe, and if twice and the other mods are coming up with some rule, I'd be happy abiding to either side of the decision.

2) What type of access should forum members be giving to WG and their agents to the information available on the forum.  As many people stated, this is hard to police, but its important to distinguish "hard to police" with "just go a head and do it." For example, even making up reports and/or lying on reports is "hard to police" - DaBestHK does his best to try to identify it, but I am sure some get through, its the nature of the internet.  Now does that mean we should just say "ahh, well, its hard to check and monitor, so I bet everyone is doing it, so it should be okay to go ahead and stretch the truth."  That seems like a terrible conclusion.... Just because its hard to check doesnt mean its right and doesnt mean, again, it doesnt hurt (or helps) the spirit of the forum.

The whole RA system (vs just paying a fee to access all content) makes it harder for agents and WGs to get access to the data, which though sucks for me to ramp up, is a good thing. The forum I used in NY (TER) is a subscription based forum that WG, agents and hobbyests had access to.  It lead to some glaring conflicts of interest and issues that I have fortunately seen very little of at 141, for which I am glad.

The primary problem with this is grade inflation - giving WGs access to the data available here makes it uncomfortable to post negative reviews. Most of TERs reviews end up being 9s/10s (Doesn't Feel Like a Service), which is completely crap, as most providers do a 5-7 job.  So we are left to guess which of the 9-10s are real 9/10s and which are inflated.  This means we likely just stick to the "good" providers we have discovered ourselves, which just further forces better and better reviews of these girls (since now 1) we go to them often, 2) hope to make them happy, and 3) know they may see our reviews).

There is nothing wrong with making WGs happy, and we should try to make sure they are treated fairly and with discretion, but again, like above, it really defeats the purpose of having a reviewer forum, since there is now incentive to bias reviews.

Personally, I have a much stronger view on this than I do for issue 1), and would much prefer any discussions on the forum to be kept among the customers, and not given to the providers. I agree its hard to police, definitely more so than fake reports, but we are all beneficiaries of the forums data, so let just attempt to do as little as possible to undermine its quality.

Some seniors in this thread have commented that they always ask for permission to share nude pics of girls on a forum, but I find it perplexing why a Hotel girl would agree in the first - why would they risk having their nude pics appearing on porn sites that might be seen by family and friends? .... Perhaps these seniors can let us in on their little secret on how they do it?

My view is the girls are young and naive. Sometimes they will only think short term and not in the long term and not what the consequences of certain actions might and could do to them in the future no matter how unlikely it might be. That's why you will never see me post any nude photos up.

Sorry Goose,  I respect your status,  love your photography skills, but you're wrong in your handling of this.  Yes, the girls should and must be respected but so should your fellow senior punters. There's nothing gained by anyone, including the girl, in creating a bunch of drama where it previously didn't exist.  You (with or without mod help) could have easily made the pix go away with little or no attention, which is in the best interest of the girl and the forum. I haven't been around as long as you and many others, but sometimes you get a little irrational, most recently with not enough replies or comments to your posts and "quitting the forum" and now this.  I understand where you're coming from in wanting the to protect the interest of a girl you've developed some sort of relationship with (friends as you say),  but you didn't have to sell out a senior forum member.  You should have addressed it directly with him when you noticed and not by blasting neg Ks. If he ignores you,  take it up with the mods, and if no action, then call him out in public.  Instead, it appears you discussed it with the girl and possibly the agent (unless I've misunderstood something) and then lambasted him with accusations of lying with relatively no proof of anything.  This is a case of "he said, she said". While the OP may have breached the trust of the girl (which is not proven by fact) you breached the trust of the OP by your actions (revealing the girl and possibly the agent, circumventing the governance of the forum...the mods,  and blasting away without any consideration for his status on the forum).  The OP of that post seems reasonable when confronted with the other side and doesn't have a history of violating the "trust of the girls" in the past.

Again,  we all know you're the man,  you get special privileges the rest of us only dream about.  Don't be a dick.

As a regular poster of pictures I should perhaps comment.  Do I always ask for permission to take photos?  Yes.  No sneaky pics.  It would in fact be very difficult to whip my hat on the girl’s head, take some shots, whip it off and pretend nothing had happened without her noticing!  Do I always discuss posting it on 141?  No.  For a start in some cases I have so little language in common with the girl that it would be impossible to get over the nuances of RA restrictions, for example, when I can’t even communicate “what is your name” properly.  I do however, care about them and take reasonable steps to ensure that they do not suffer as a result.  I always suggest covering their face for revealing shots (hence ‘the hat’) so they cannot be identified.  Some girls do not seem to care, either immediately or after a while, and are happy to pose, sometimes even egg me on to get more revealing shots of them or the two of us in action that I am reluctant to post.  If girls are from Guangdong, I am particularly careful as they are more likely to have friends or relatives in HK, including young males who may possibly visit 141.  Since this site is not readily available on the Mainland, girls from Chongching or Hubei, for example, are less likely to be at risk of exposure.  So far, I have not had any problems or recrimination, so I propose to continue with a commonsense approach

Of course nothing is 100% safe, as Edison Chen found out.  Someone could steal your computer or phone or USB drive even after you take extreme precautions.  Some high RA member of this forum may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing and rip off the content.  But as another poster has pointed out, girls these days have grown up with on-line media, and are pretty well aware that photos are digital and are shared.  I think it is unrealistic to have a full discussion with every girl about the ramifications of sharing photos.  Do we inform them of their rights every time and get them to sign a waiver:  “You have the right to remain clothed, but anything you reveal may be shared with other brothers on a restricted access Internet forum, which, notwithstanding the Reading Access safeguards in place to protect identity, is theoretically in the public domain and no guarantee is provided as to the long-term confidentiality of content thus included.”  If this was a required condition on this forum, I would no longer be able to post.

I am totally against sharing the content of the reports with the girls.  It seems that this is the key point and the source of most of the difficulties which have arisen.  Also if you share with agents then you are getting far too cosy with them and your objectivity is compromised, blurring the boundary between a report and an advertisement.  The main value of illustrated reports (apart from providing eye candy) is to get at the truth behind the BS and PS and fakes and give brothers a realistic expectation of what they can reasonably expect from a certain girl.

please pardon a newbie whos never posted a pic getting his 2 cents in.  i would think that getting consent to post online is impractical.   i though that one of the purpose of setting a RA for the pics is to protect the wg privacy somewhat.  this limits their access to mongers only.  their family or friends back home will never know unless they are mongers on this forum themselves.  i would think that most of the pics here, no permission was given by the wg expicitly to post it online on a sex forum.  to be honest i would feel kind of dumb asking a wg that.  to me if they give me permission to take a pic that shoukld be good enough.   afterall i'm not publishing on the front page of south china post or anything like that.
therefore the think the bro's that were on the OP were unduly harsh.  first of all the forum rules just state no sneaky pics and no where does it say we have to have consent to post them on the internet ( correct me if i'm wrong).  in fact i think the there's more of a breach of trust for the bro who shared whatever info is on this website with the wg than the OP.   whose to say whose lying and whose not.  as you should know women change their minds ALL the time.  so even if they consent to allow you to post does not mean they will not regret it later on.

Your approach and pics have always been well-balanced - the forum gets to see her pics to see how her body matches the DB, yet she retains the required privacy.  The only problem is we cant see her face to compare against the DB - which is usually the most heavily PS'ed feature of them.   

I have only ever made 3 reports with pics: but followed these rules (that I kinda made for myself):

----- Of course no sneaky pics.  Never take any.  Though I often wonder (and fear about) how many love-hotel-sneaky-cam porn movies I am starring in!  I gotta think some of the places have the pervert-installed hidden camera.  Yikes!

----- nude shots never include her face... and none with an identifiable tattoo.  I made this error once where one tat was a bit too visible and I removed that pic the same day when someone commented on the tat.  (note that they didnt -K me a zillion points for it - just mentioned it and I removed it immediately).  

----- Any face shot is entirely detached from the body.  She's fully clothed and not in some compromising position.  (IE:  a pic she would easily put on her facebook.)

So, my rule was simply based on the premise to  post nothing that would be easy to identify her in a nude or compromising position.  

My take on possible forum rules?

----- no sneaky pics.
----- body shots with no face are okay without explicit consent if nothing identifiable is present.
----- nude shot with face visible MUST have explicit consent to post.  This is just going to far if you dont ask her -- the pics will be on the internet FOREVER so let her at least make that risk assesment herself.  
----- seperate face shot.  Hmmm, I did it only once and frankly still wonder if it was okay to post.  She was fully dressed and in a normal pose, but still...

[ Last edited by  wander at 17-12-2011 08:15 ]

For what it's worth, I actually ask them if they prefer more business and if they're okay with me writing a report. Since a report is more informative with a picture, I tell them, they are sometimes more willing to pose knowing that I'll write a report. Some have asked how their service was (Monica, Cathy) and I told them I wouldn't write a report if it wasn't good. Which is bending the truth a bit, yes. If they were terrible, I don't think we'd be having the discussion in the first place.

In this way, I can sometimes get pretty decent shots, though usually partially clothed, with faces.

I think disclosure to them is good, but I understand that language can cause problems in communicating what you'd like to do. I also think that it's not *that* important that every girl you bang gets documented with a full pic spread. If they're reluctant, let it go...there are always more. If you've generated some level of trust with them that they are obviously letting you take pictures for yourself (and you haven't told them that you're  141 follower), then it would be shitty to publish pics given under those circumstances.

I don't know, guys. This seems like pretty easy morality to me. Then again, this is coming from someone that visits WGs to an audience of peers.

bro wander, since you're suggesting possible forum guidelines, please consider also all forms of WG. it is difficult to obtain EXPLICIT consent when more than 90% of WGs don't speak English and some punters don't speak Mandarin/Cantonese

I had talked about this point in my previous post. I've cracked my brain open and I still can't figure out how to get a girl to agree that their pictures are going to be posted on a forum. This is just an impossible thing to do.

And if the new rule will enforce that we have to ask for permission to post pictures on the internet, I doubt I will be taking pictures at all. I take pictures (whenever given the permission) only for the bros here. I don't do it for the K's. Even without K's, I can still punt. Maybe there are times that I will feel dissatisfied with the girl I visit, which is something that could be reduced with the help of other bros here and with good enough RA to access more content of this forum.

@Blazza:
Same sentiments here.